Beginner impro Jazz Theory Question before I Post on Jazz Theory...

[Pete Thomas]

Yes i know Pete but i was always taught that if the bass player is playing the route then the sax improv would sound better if you kept off it.

Wow. I can't think why you would have been taught that. When improvising you can play the root, it can sound as good as any other chord note.

 

[jazzdoh]

Wow. I can't think why you would have been taught that. When improvising you can play the root, it can sound as good as any other chord note.

Pete you have got me well confused here,the chord we are taking about is Em7 E,G,B,D that is what we would base an improvisation on if we were give this chord to play on lets say over one bar the slash C or /C is only telling us that the arranger wants the /C played by the bass,or is it that we are taking about Em7 followed by the C chord as in key centre.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Pete you have got me well confused here,the chord we are taking about is Em7 E,G,B,D that is what we would base an improvisation on if we were give this chord to play on lets say over one bar the slash C or /C is only telling us that the arranger wants the /C played by the bass,or is it that we are taking about Em7 followed by the C chord as in key centre.

The /C makes it a C maj9 chord. So I presume we are talking about a C maj 9. If you put a C under an Em7, it's no longer an Em7. I would base my impro around it being a C maj9, and would be a bit miffed at the arranger for telling me it's an Em7/C

 

[Colin the Bear]

That's cleared it up for me. Thankyou Pete. The guitar chords with the slash business are a form of short hand and are for the guitarist and bassist. Yet again as an alto saxophone player we have to be one jump ahead of the game and not only transpose but interpret what's written.


It seems so obvious now that C/EGBD is the same as CEGBD A eureka moment for me lol

It's no wonder guitarists look at you with a blank expression sometimes. It also explains why the page is telling me to go one way and my ear is saying there's another way.

 

[Jamesmac]

With all due respect to Mr Wheeler, I think Em/C is pointless and misleading when C maj7 or Cmaj9 gives you a better picture of the harmony.



I disagree, the C is the root of the chord and you need that to know how the chord is functioning in context. As what I wrote above.



Again, with all due respect to Gary Burton, this is simply not true. Writing a chord as a slash chord is the opposite of giving you clues to the voice leading.

If I see B dim/G I am confused, but if I see G7 I know immediately it's a dominant chord of G7 and what the voice leading is.

Slash chords can be used to help rhythm guitarists who can't cope with complex chords, so he/she might see Fm/G, and very happily just play Fm (because the G is covered by the bass player) and have a chance of playing fewer wrong notes or less chance of having a heart attack while truing to work out what is meant by G11 b9.

But they are not good for communicating functioning harmony to improvisers when the conventional notation is feasible.

I had the impression that Gary Burton was saying that the improviser should only be aware of the slash chord when improvising over it. To choose to incorporate it or not
. ie. ...Dm..... Dm/C#....Dm/C.....Dm/B......Bbmaj7. The bass line of D....C#...C...B....A could be used in an Sax impro with great effect, depending on the players imagination and skill.
You could say the Dm/C is a Dm7 and the Dm/B is a Dm(#6) if you want to write the chord correctly, but it's the descending chromatic figure that is the way the harmony is going. I'm sure Bach was doing it only it was called figured bass before chord symbols were thought of.
The first bars of a great song. Michel Legrands What are you doing the rest of your life.🙂

 

[aldevis]

I had the impression that Gary Burton was saying that the improviser should only be aware of the slash chord when improvising over it. To choose to incorporate it or not
. ie. ...Dm..... Dm/C#....Dm/C.....Dm/B......Bbmaj7. The bass line of D....C#...C...B....A could be used in an Sax impro with great effect, depending on the players imagination and skill.
You could say the Dm/C is a Dm7 and the Dm/B is a Dm(#6) if you want to write the chord correctly, but it's the descending chromatic figure that is the way the harmony is going. I'm sure Bach was doing it only it was called figured bass before chord symbols were thought of.
The first bars of a great song. Michel Legrands What are you doing the rest of your life.🙂

What are you doing for the rest of my funny Procolarum valentine on a G string

 

[Jamesmac]

What are you doing for the rest of my funny Procolarum valentine on a G string

Its everywhere

 

[Profusia]

Thomas i see where you are coming from,a lot depends what chords follow say Em7/C and also understanding what sound the composer,arranger which thinking of when he wanted the C in the bass.

Hi Brian,

I'm not really coming from anywhere, just trying to understand all these confusing bits of information and varying viewpoints.

It does strike me that if so many seasoned improvisers and pro players are interpreting things so widely and varyingly then we should also expect variation in the way that composers think and write things. After all I assume there are no hard and fast rules. No doubt there are conventions but conventions aren't always followed by everyone. And anyone can pick up a guitar and start fooling around and write something with no knowledge of theory or notation practices, and they might turn out to be a musical genius.

I can understand why C E G B D constitutes a Cmaj9 and doesn't make sense to be thought of as Emin7/C, but at the same time I can see why a composer might want an Emin chord, and want anyone playing chords (apart perhaps from a base line player) to use just that chord, but at the same time want a base line playing a C at that point so want to write it as Emin7/C. In that context I can kind of see why someone improvising a melody might well be advised to steer clear of that baseline note, as its not actually the root of the Emin7 chord, and is only there as a baseline feature. I probably sound somewhat naive here, but that's because I am and am just trying to learn and understand.

I don't think Gary Burton was saying that slash chords are there to show us where there is voice-leading (guidetones/ guidelines), but rather was saying that if you see a slash chord its worth looking to see if its a series of voice-leading base guidelines which could possibly be used to feature with in an improv to help to highlight the chord changes, and to highlight that guideline movement and the mood over those bars. It wasn't a case of the slash chords being provided for the improviser's benefit but more a case of reading between the lines. This is all just my interpretation though as a beginner after a first time improv course that was way too advanced for me.

Clearly I still don't have a handle on this but hey... ask a silly question and get a tidal wave of even more confusing answers. ;}

 

[Pete Thomas]

I can see why a composer might want an Emin chord, and want anyone playing chords (apart perhaps from a base line player) to use just that chord, but at the same time want a base line playing a C at that point so want to write it as Emin7/C.

No, this would not happen. If a composer wants individual instruments to play certain notes and not others from the harmony, then they would need to write out the exact voicing they want.

Simply writing Em7/C does not specifically imply for example that the guitar and piano must not play the C. Perhaps my earlier post was misleading when I said slash make it easier for guitarists. It does make it easier for inexperienced guutarist etc who would know how to play the full chord, however it doesn't mean that they mustn't play the full chord if they want to.

Chord symbols in jazz and pop/rock are guidelines and do not specify voicings. Often a pianist will miss out a root and the 5th and/or other notes of a chord because they are not necessary most of the time and they may not want such a full sounding chord.

e.g. G13 can be voiced B, F and E by a pianist or guitarist. Those are important notes that define the chord (presuming the G is played by the bass player). The 5thy, 9th and 11th that could also be played aren't necessary.

In these genres, when only chord symbols are supplied, it is understood that the performer has some leeway in how they play the chords.

I work as a composer and this is exactly what I expect. OTOH, if I have a specific voicing in mind, then I do write the chord out in full on the notated part.

 

[aldevis]

I can understand why C E G B D constitutes a Cmaj9 and doesn't make sense to be thought of as Emin7/C, but at the same time I can see why a composer might want an Emin chord, and want anyone playing chords (apart perhaps from a base line player) to use just that chord, but at the same time want a base line playing a C at that point so want to write it as Emin7/C. In that context I can kind of see why someone improvising a melody might well be advised to steer clear of that baseline note, as its not actually the root of the Emin7 chord, and is only there as a baseline feature. I probably sound somewhat naive here, but that's because I am and am just trying to learn and understand.

I am still trying to learn and understand, 15 years after those Kenny Wheeler's charts.

Usually three things may happen:
1- the guitar player is a bit thick and gives you chords reflecting voicing instead of harmonic function.
A good example of this is Cm#5 instead of Ab/C, when you are clearly playing in Ab major.
In this case the chord is seen as a mere description of the notes being played by a harmonic instrument.

2- Bass is required to play specific grades of the chord that don't change the harmonic function.
|C7 |C7/E |F7 | G7|
This is what I consider a proper way of using slash chords

3- The composer willingly wants to mislead you. Try this on the A part of So What (concert): Dmin7|G7/D |Cmaj/D | |



I hope we are all more confused, now


edit: some overlapped concept with Pete's post, that I didn't read while typing.

 

[Jamesmac]

i can think of some modern composers who wrote their songs with acc that would be described as classical ie. difficult to isolate the acc from the melody. Summertime for eg.just as Schubert would have with a Lieder. i think the chord symbol is a kind of DIY. just tells you a bunch of notes related to the tune, but not the whole story.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's difficult to express sound waves on paper. I know some of you guys have spent years studying it and it's comforting to know that even then there is confusion. At the rate I'm picking it up I don't think I'll live long enough to have more than the basics. However I do enjoy these threads. I always get something....

even if it's only a headache.

 

[aldevis]

i think the chord symbol is a kind of DIY. just tells you a bunch of notes related to the tune, but not the whole story.

It has a long tradition though, dating back to basso numerato. A36 was clearly the first inversion of F, regardless of the notes you would have chosen (omit 5 was common).

On the other hand, we now tend to use analysis rather that actual voicing. so F/A instead, in order to know what the tune is doing (supposed to do) in that point.

 

[aldevis]

A riddle I took a while to get, after finding it in many bossa nova tunes:

|Bm7b5|Fmin6|Amin6| |

 

[Pete Thomas]

2- Bass is required to play specific grades of the chord that don't change the harmonic function.
|C7 |C7/E |F7 | G7|

I always think of inversions and slash chords as different.

ie C/E is an inversion, I don't think of it as a slash chord. Gm7/C is a slash chord, it's not an inversions because it's a shortcut way of writing C11 (in root position)

A riddle I took a while to get, after finding it in many bossa nova tunes:

|Bm7b5|Fmin6|Amin6| |

Ah yes, the old min6 syndrome. First spotted in Tin Pan Alley sheet music which had symbols for banjo and/or ukelele. Exactly the point, no banjo player would have wanted Bm7b5, however they can cope with Dm6. They would either play all the notes (and so unsuspectingly be playing the Bm7b5) or they would just play Dm and so be playing at least some of the notes correctly.

 

[Profusia]

I am still trying to learn and understand, 15 years after those Kenny Wheeler's charts.

Usually three things may happen:
1- the guitar player is a bit thick and gives you chords reflecting voicing instead of harmonic function.

I'm definitely thick, although prefer the term "ingnoramus". ;}

I hope we are all more confused, now

Hard to tell anymore. Eventually even particles flying around randomly can appear to make a pattern! I'm laying in the gutter, looking at the stars, and seeing 2 dimensional constellations that make sense of life, the universe, and everything, but don't really exist in any 3 dimensional way.

thejazzresource.com certainly gives a different view to guidlelines and voiceleading to Gary Burton's. It treats them differently from one another suggesting that the 3rd and 7ths of changing chords form guidelines, whereas voice-leading is when a chord player CHOOSES to invert a chord in order to get a closer/smooth/nicer-sounding transition from one chord to another. No mention of slash chord notation in either respect. I think all the music educators need their heads banging together until they come up with a common front! lol

 

[Pete Thomas]

It treats them differently from one another suggesting that the 3rd and 7ths of changing chords form guidelines, whereas voice-leading is when a chord player CHOOSES to invert a chord in order to get a closer/smooth/nicer-sounding transition from one chord to another.

No real conflict there. It's not so much inverting to get the voice leading, it's more about rrevoicing the chord so that 3rds and 7ths do their thing. And/or other notes don't jump around so much. Very often it means the bottom note of their chord has changed so no longer a voicing with root at the bottom, so you could say it is also an inversion as well as rearringing of other notes, but it's more a by product of the revoicing.

As a evry simple example go to a keyboard and play a C triad (CEG) followed by F triad (FAC) just like that in root position.

You will see all the notes moved up a fourth (or down a fifth).

Now, instead of that play C as before but the F as CFA, so the C remains where it is, the E moves up to F (strong voice leading) and the G up to A (not really the same kind of voice leading but a small movement)

It's called voice leading because this kind of movement of the notes between two chords is much easier and more flowing for singers, it comes from choral writing, hence "voices"

 

[Profusia]

No real conflict there. It's not so much inverting to get the voice leading, it's more about rrevoicing the chord so that 3rds and 7ths do their thing. And/or other notes don't jump around so much. Very often it means the bottom note of their chord has changed so no longer a voicing with root at the bottom, so you could say it is also an inversion as well as rearringing of other notes, but it's more a by product of the revoicing.

As a evry simple example go to a keyboard and play a C triad (CEG) followed by F triad (FAC) just like that in root position.

You will see all the notes moved up a fourth (or down a fifth).

Now, instead of that play C as before but the F as CFA, so the C remains where it is, the E moves up to F (strong voice leading) and the G up to A (not really the same kind of voice leading but a small movement)

It's called voice leading because this kind of movement of the notes between two chords is much easier and more flowing for singers, it comes from choral writing, hence "voices"

Yeah I understand the thejazzresource.com explanation and theory and agree there's no conflict there, but it does conflict with Gary Burton's message (at least in my eyes) which was that voice-leading and guide-tone-lines are the same thing, and that they are usually a line of notes (of the same position in a harmony) which either descend or ascend in either semitone or full tone steps. I think he even said that was the definition (worded slightly differently at the time of course, and subject to my inference and chinese whisper etc.). He used examples where they were the base of the harmony (I say base rather than root as some of them were what I assume are being called slash chords written with a note other than the root after a slash), and also the "top" of the harmony e.g. 7th and octave so wasn't pointing specifically or particularly towards the 3rd and 7th as both you and thejazzresource.com do for voice-leading guide-tones. Edited by user as I meant to say guide-tones not voice-leading (I think!)

It may be that Gary Burton was giving a simplified view or something as a means to achieving something else. I really don't know.

All I'm learning is that everything I thought I'd learned may be either completely wrong or at least very open to opinion and/or interpretation.

 

[aldevis]

Gm7/C is a slash chord, it's not an inversions because it's a shortcut way of writing C11 (in root position)

A clear example of something I would never write, unless it is |Gm7/C |C7 |F | |
but even in this case there are few alternative spellings. Unfortunately we need to get used to many possibilities for the same chord, according to the writer's preferences

Ah yes, the old min6 syndrome.

This is not what the riddle is about, but thank you for reminding me the syndrome:
An old RCA arranger I worked with used to write |Dm7|G7| C| but |Fm6/D|G7|Cm
He did not want to see the common II V I pattern

 

[Jamesmac]

Yeah I understand the thejazzresource.com explanation and theory and agree there's no conflict there, but it does conflict with Gary Burton's message (at least in my eyes) which was that voice-leading and guide-tone-lines are the same thing, and that they are usually a line of notes (of the same position in a harmony) which either descend or ascend in either semitone or full tone steps. I think he even said that was the definition (worded slightly differently at the time of course, and subject to my inference and chinese whisper etc.). He used examples where they were the base of the harmony (I say base rather than root as some of them were what I assume are being called slash chords written with a note other than the root after a slash), and also the "top" of the harmony e.g. 7th and octave so wasn't pointing specifically or particularly towards the 3rd and 7th as both you and thejazzresource.com do for voice-leading guide-tones. Edited by user as I meant to say guide-tones not voice-leading (I think!)

It may be that Gary Burton was giving a simplified view or something as a means to achieving something else. I really don't know.

All I'm learning is that everything I thought I'd learned may be either completely wrong or at least very open to opinion and/or interpretation.

My take on what GB said is. the guide notes were just all notes that belonged to the chord and followed the direction of the harmony, i dont think he mentioned voice leading, i think they are two different things.
PS. He spoke about voice leading when he mentioned using chromatics to make the changes.