Beginner impro Jazz Theory Question before I Post on Jazz Theory...

[aldevis]

Probably because it was what I was first taught, I prefer to use the Roman numeral notation which is based on the degree of the scale and therefore is not dependent on the key

There is a very valid reason for this: Roman numerals (ordinals) indicate chords, Arabic numerals (cardinals) indicate notes.

5 of V in C major is D

 

[Colin the Bear]

And 7 of IX is Borg

 

[BigMartin]

And 7 of IX is Borg

What's tennis got to do with it?

 

[aldevis]

What's tennis got to do with it?

Borg married a singer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loredana_Bertè

 

[Colin the Bear]

Resistance was futile

 

[GregHR]

Hiya Jazzaferri,
Thanks for this piece of advice. I am trying to do what you suggest re: really learning a song (In my case its 'Have You Met Miss Jones') and I am finding that the melody really is the key to unlock the harmonies and find the guide tones throughout. I am still having alot of difficulty with the B section however. Work in progress.

 

[GregHR]

'It doesn't matter what order the notes appear in - if C, E, and G appear, it's chord I. If it's not got the C at the bottom of the pile then the chord is inverted (in Jazz notation, this is called a "slash chord as in C/E meaning Cmaj triad with the E in the bass). E at the bottom is first inversion or Ib and G at the bottom is second inversion or Ic. If you add a seventh, then you can have another inversion with a B or a Bb at the bottom (unsurprisingly, this is Id - but there should be a superscript '7' to denote a seventh chord (I7d). etc.'

Hey thanks 'tenorviol' that piece of info was really useful. I didn't realise that slash chord indicate inversions.
cheers

 

[Colin the Bear]

I've just reread this thread as it got bumped up from way back before Christmas. It must have been cabin fever is all I can say.

 

[aldevis]

I didn't realise that slash chord indicate inversions.

Not always, sometimes they indicate voicing. C/D is an example.

About Miss Jones's Bridge, I once met her dentist: this is one way of seeing it (concert):
|Bb| |Gb| |D| |Gb| |

You are moving a major third down or up (like Giant Steps). Everything else (blank bars), are just secondary dominants.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Not always, sometimes they indicate voicing. C/D is an example.

What does this mean? Could you expand?

 

[aldevis]

What does this mean? Could you expand?

C/D usually is not in the C major family. It is a form of D9sus4.

Another example (that I will still have to fully understand) is a Kenny Wheeler writing:
Fmaj7/D |Bm7b5/G | Emin/C | |

It could be written |Dm9|G9|Cmaj9| |

but I am sure mr Wheeler has a good reason for it. (I guess requiring modal misplacement from the improviser)

 

[Profusia]

C/D usually is not in the C major family. It is a form of D9sus4.

Another example (that I will still have to fully understand) is a Kenny Wheeler writing:
Fmaj7/D |Bm7b5/G | Emin/C | |

It could be written |Dm9|G9|Cmaj9| |

but I am sure mr Wheeler has a good reason for it. (I guess requiring modal misplacement from the improviser)

I take it the 3 chords are written one after the other in sequence?

And at this risk of making myself look stupid (yet again), does Emin/C imply C, E, G, B, or C, E, G, B, D i.e. with the 7th? I still find it unclear exactly what notes to include and exclude when its not explicit.

 

[Profusia]

C/D usually is not in the C major family. It is a form of D9sus4.

It might be a long lost distant illegitimate cousin that no-one knew existed.

 

[jazzdoh]

I take it the 3 chords are written one after the other in sequence?

And at this risk of making myself look stupid (yet again), does Emin/C imply C, E, G, B, or C, E, G, B, D i.e. with the 7th? I still find it unclear exactly what notes to include and exclude when its not explicit.

Thomas if you are improvising on Em7/C you would only need to worry about the Em7 as the C is meant for the bass player.

So you would be looking at E,G,B,D

 

[Profusia]

Thomas if you are improvising on Em7/C you would only need to worry about the Em7 as the C is meant for the bass player.

So you would be looking at E,G,B,D

Thanks Brian,

I really wanted to understand if the 7th was implicit in Emin/C, and if so why? I mean any other reason than when playing jazz we like full rich (and slightly dissonant) chords?

But couldn't the /C be seen as possibly being voice leading? On the "Introduction to Improvisation" course that some of us are currently doing Gary Burton suggests looking for slash chords as indicators of possible voice-leading (or as he calls them guide tones and guide lines) and suggests majoring on them in improvisations (if guide tones but not if just a bass pedal obviously) to highlight the chord movements and character of the piece. This is all new to me so I'm keen to understand it in context and how some of you experienced guys see these things.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Don't try to see them. Try try hear them.

Don't be afraid to experiment. Slip past notes in chromatic runs and see how they feel. Keep going till you get a resolution. If find something you like you like on the way up have another look on the way down. This can get you into the habit of slipping on and off notes if they're not working.

Play the chord quickly with an extra note on the top end then repeat with a different note. Moving up the scale works as will semi tones or even whole tones.

There are no wrong notes, merely dissonance, which you can bend in or out for effect.

The melody or theme itself should suggest where to go with the clever bits joining the phrases. Inverting a phrase works too.

I feel the listener should be able to still hear the original melody or theme even though you're not playing it.

Don't get stuck on the chords. They are only the bones of a piece. Add some flesh and a little skin and perhaps a tan and some makeup.

 

[Pete Thomas]

In some common jazz theory approach (that I don't support) it would be: C Ionian, E Phrygian, D Dorian, G Mixolydian.
I still think it is better to call the whole thing "Cmajor"

I agree with Aldevis about this, the idea of a mode per chord can be very misleading, it simplifies things in some respects but skirts around the main issue of learning harmonic functions to enable good strong melodic phrase construction.

CM7: My understanding;I can play a C major scale or the chord up to the 9th. My question, what notes can I start on?

Which note you start on is up to you. This is one thing that is wrong with the mode concept, as it sort of implies you start on the root.

To start with, a good guideline of thumb is that chord notes fall on a strong beat (1, 2, 3 and 4 in 4/4, and the notes in between the chord notes fall on a weaker beat, (e.g. 1 and 2 and). The in between chord notes can fall on strong beats, but usually need to be dealt with accordingly (e.g. as suspensions which resolve) so you can see, you really need to know the chord tones and their tendencies as opposed to just playing a mode/scale.

Scales do come to it, but the best approach is what Aldevis mentioned. Here is an example:

Typical progression: Am7 Dm7 G7 C.

All those chords are directly related to the key of C. (We call this a key centre), so the easiest scale to think is C major for all of those chords, (not D dorian for D, G mixolydian for G)
On every basic level, you can make up your impro melody from just this one scale, but for a better result you need to know the chord tones for each chord so you can do what I said above re: strong and weak beats.

 

[jazzdoh]

Thanks Brian,

I really wanted to understand if the 7th was implicit in Emin/C, and if so why? I mean any other reason than when playing jazz we like full rich (and slightly dissonant) chords?

But couldn't the /C be seen as possibly being voice leading? On the "Introduction to Improvisation" course that some of us are currently doing Gary Burton suggests looking for slash chords as indicators of possible voice-leading (or as he calls them guide tones and guide lines) and suggests majoring on them in improvisations (if guide tones but not if just a bass pedal obviously) to highlight the chord movements and character of the piece. This is all new to me so I'm keen to understand it in context and how some of you experienced guys see these things.

Thomas i see where you are coming from,a lot depends what chords follow say Em7/C and also understanding what sound the composer,arranger which thinking of when he wanted the C in the bass.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Another example (that I will still have to fully understand) is a Kenny Wheeler writing:
Fmaj7/D |Bm7b5/G | Emin/C | |

It could be written |Dm9|G9|Cmaj9| |

but I am sure mr Wheeler has a good reason for it. (I guess requiring modal misplacement from the improviser)

With all due respect to Mr Wheeler, I think Em/C is pointless and misleading when C maj7 or Cmaj9 gives you a better picture of the harmony.

Thomas if you are improvising on Em7/C you would only need to worry about the Em7 as the C is meant for the bass player.

So you would be looking at E,G,B,D

I disagree, the C is the root of the chord and you need that to know how the chord is functioning in context. As what I wrote above.

But couldn't the /C be seen as possibly being voice leading? On the "Introduction to Improvisation" course that some of us are currently doing Gary Burton suggests looking for slash chords as indicators of possible voice-leading

Again, with all due respect to Gary Burton, this is simply not true. Writing a chord as a slash chord is the opposite of giving you clues to the voice leading.

If I see B dim/G I am confused, but if I see G7 I know immediately it's a dominant chord of G7 and what the voice leading is.

Slash chords can be used to help rhythm guitarists who can't cope with complex chords, so he/she might see Fm/G, and very happily just play Fm (because the G is covered by the bass player) and have a chance of playing fewer wrong notes or less chance of having a heart attack while truing to work out what is meant by G11 b9.

But they are not good for communicating functioning harmony to improvisers when the conventional notation is feasible.

 

[jazzdoh]

I disagree, the C is the root of the chord and you need that to know how the chord is functioning in context. As what I wrote above.

Yes i know Pete but i was always taught that if the bass player is playing the route then the sax improv would sound better if you kept off it.