Playing the saxophone Jazz Snobs...

[mark_addy]

It’s quite simple- because normal conversation happens. One person says something about anime music then another person says “anime- isn’t that porn?” then another person answers “no you’re thinking of something else”. It’s just totally normal, run-of-the-mill human behavior to shoot the sh*t like this. Relieves tension, hurts no one. Lots of stuff to worry about in this world but this ain’t one of em.

I enjoyed your post, but (given your avatar - is that the right term?) I found it hard not to read it in the voice of Zoot.

 

[Ivan]

'Spirited Away'

Brilliant film, and the music of Joe Hisaishi is magical

The opening arpeggios set the scene

View: https://youtu.be/TK1Ij_-mank?si=bzkCWDalWghM_VJn

Howl's Moving Castle" is a frequent one, I still haven't seen it and I really need to...

No time like the present...

 

[Tenor Viol]

The whole issue of what we might call affectation applies across the entire musical domain, regardless of genres.

It's not only jazz that has these kinds of issues. You can't play Handel on modern instruments. You need Renaissance recorders at A=382 for that, or A= 460... (they cna't make up their minds). Baroque must be at A=415. Beethoven should be a 30 piece orchestra with period brass... and A should be...? You're singing German polyphony in Latin from 1500, then it must be pronounced like this (despite me being English, living 400 years later, when no-one has any real idea of how Germans pronounced Latin 400 years ago*). Musicals aren't music or films. Operetta isn't real opera... Anything pre-Mahler is just twee schmaltz... and so on.

Prejudices abound.

Musical preferences are personal. Personally, I don't particularly like bebop, especially 'hard' bebop - the million notes a minute approach doesn't appeal to me. I have the same response to certain classical players who think playing something at crotchet = 400 is a good idea just because they can.

*In case you're wondering... usually, we are told to sing Latin in an Italianate style. This particular workshop, insisted on 'period appropriate' pronunciations meaning that Latin words like 'qui', usually pronounce 'kwee' should be more like 'k-vee'. There will be some valid reasons for this to do with rhyme schemes for example... I just thought it a bit excessive for a one day workshop.

 

[Targa]

*In case you're wondering... usually, we are told to sing Latin in an Italianate style. This particular workshop, insisted on 'period appropriate' pronunciations meaning that Latin words like 'qui', usually pronounce 'kwee' should be more like 'k-vee'. There will be some valid reasons for this to do with rhyme schemes for example... I just thought it a bit excessive for a one day workshop.

Of course no one knows how the Romans pronounced Latin either.
Which was pointed out by the teacher when I learned it, so he said ‘you’ll speak it my way’.
Then O level Latin was a requirement for University now they let anyone in.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Of course no one knows how the Romans pronounced Latin either.
Which was pointed out by the teacher when I learned it, so he said ‘you’ll speak it my way’.
Then O level Latin was a requirement for University now they let anyone in.

Along the lines of having to be a fair piano player even if another instrumentalist in order to get into music conservatoires. Some good people were lost to this.

Sure - handy to be able to play through any harmony exercises you might have written and frankly handy for anything; but essential ?

Rule long since relaxed - I think…

 

[Pete Thomas]

Because that's what happens when one revives an19-y.o. thread perhaps....

I don’t think it’s related. Discussions go off on tangents whether new or old. A slight deviation from the topic is left where it is, if it becomes significant then we move to its own thread. This seems to be on the verge of warranting a split to new thread about Anime, but without my CSAM diversion. Reviving old forgotten threads works well to increase engagement so helps the forum. Unless they are redundant and no longer a relevant topic.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Perhaps we should just rejoice in the fact that art / music is so vast that it can encompass so much variety - not just of music / style but the individual approaches to each.

I used to get a lot of frowns from other clarinet players when I used a little vibrato here and there when playing Beethoven. My answer was always that I was surrounded by it (flute, oboe, bassoon) so why not ?

Most harpsichord pieces are heard in concerts played on the piano.

Some jazzers will go and get period instruments in order to sound more ‘30’s / ‘40’s (yes I do get it).

But, is this pursuit of authenticity much more of a recent mindset ?

With architecture we staunchly protect old buildings - great - but in previous times they mostly pulled down the old and moved on.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Some jazzers will go and get period instruments in order to sound more ‘30’s / ‘40’s (yes I do get it).

I don't think it's necessary. From someone who for a while was 100% involved in recreating 30s and 40s music.

But, is this pursuit of authenticity much more of a recent mindset ?

I think it may well be.

With architecture we staunchly protect old buildings - great - but in previous times they mostly pulled down the old and moved on.

Again, maybe a sign of the times and a hangover from immediate post WW2 architecture when it had to be quick and cheap.

I used to live in a 20s so-called conservation area and most people had the idea that when building a new (infill) property it had to look like all the 1920s houses. The conservation officer told me that was a terrible idea as it's more or less impossible with modern building methods and regulations, and he'd prefer to see a really nice piece of 21st century architecture.

 

[Ivan]

I used to get a lot of frowns from other clarinet players when I used a little vibrato here and there when playing Beethoven. My answer was always that I was surrounded by it (flute, oboe, bassoon) so why not?

Most harpsichord pieces are heard in concerts played on the piano.

Some jazzers will go and get period instruments in order to sound more ‘30’s / ‘40’s (yes I do get it).

But, is this pursuit of authenticity much more of a recent mindset ?

Depends on what you mean by recent... Ancient music played on ancient instruments as a thing surely predated, for example, the establishment in 1973 of the Academy of Ancient Music

 

[mizmar]

But, is this pursuit of authenticity much more of a recent mindset ?

Far from it. Europeans often go through phases of deriving "authenticity" from, for example, the Ancient Greeks, or some folk tradition recreation - most National Costumes are 1800s creations etc.

immediate post WW2 architectuer when it had to be quick and cheap.

And/Or the 70s boom in tower blocks and ploughing through neighborhoods to build throughways etc. It wasn't just the loss of old buildings - some slums had to go - but the creation of really appalling urban environments.

Modernity (1500s and forward?), seems to me, is a lot about innovation Vs conservation; as a dynamic.

 

[Grumps]

Okay, I told this story some time ago elsewhere, but it has to do with the Symposium, musical snobbery and yes, even anime. It was probably more than twenty years ago when my then wife would get me these sweet hotel hookups getting me a room for just a few bucks in some really, really nice northern Virginia hotels for the Symposium. One Symposium a group of us took over a hotel bar piano and jammed well into the night... and they didn't even throw us out. But the next year at the same hotel, I didn't have my posse and there was some sort of music convention going on. I figured I'm there, I can get a day pass and see what it's all about while not at the Symposium. Then I found out it was a convention for anime/gaming theme music.. and I'd already paid. I was like... crap... this is going to suck. But I actually had some fun hanging around this rather odd clique, and because I had a day pass I could get around closed off areas of the hotel and found a perfect unused lounge to play some horn. I was just noodling really, but after about a half hour or so of playing pretty much in my own world... I heard an audience. Folks had actually wandered in there thinking it was part of the convention... so I just kept at it.

Good times.

 

[JayeNM]

I don’t think it’s related. Discussions go off on tangents whether new or old. A slight deviation from the topic is left where it is, if it becomes significant then we move to its own thread. This seems to be on the verge of warranting a split to new thread about Anime, but without my CSAM diversion. Reviving old forgotten threads works well to increase engagement so helps the forum. Unless they are redundant and no longer a relevant topic.

Was just joking but sometimes I find when a subject begins to get exhausted they tend to digress more often....This was a 5-page thread already on a subject of Jazz Snobbery....I guess the topic is relevant, since it exists as much as if not more than it did in 2007....but....

 

[JayeNM]

I used to live in a 20s so-called conservation area and most people had the idea that when building a new (infill) property it had to look like all the 1920s houses. The conservation officer told me that was a terrible idea as it's more or less impossible with modern building methods and regulations, and he'd prefer to see a really nice piece of 21st century architecture.

You just hit my wheelhouse here as I used to be an Architect for 30 years.

It isn't an either-or.

Yet it is often framed like that.

Contextualization is SUPER important in urban planning, it came about as the result of 40's-60's modernism which during its time was seen as the Rx to urban woes. Problem is, it wasn't at all.
Plus, like everything else, there was GOOD modernism and bad. The latter being done by architects and developers of very questionable ability, yet as it beccame the norm it was produced ad infinitum and we also lost a LOT of urban historical fabric as a result.

Jane Jacobs - The Death and Life of Great American Cities...required reading for anyone interested in this sorta topic. The first and greatest sociological study of what modernist urban renewal did to neighborhoods and societies.

So...what happened in the 80's was a huge BACKLASH - again based upon a very SOLID sociological and architectural INTENTION, but sadly carried out in a very pedestrian manner (both physically and how codes were created and passed). The IDEA that where there is a good amount of historical urban fabric remaining, new development should reference it in things like massing, materials, use, etc...is honestly undebatable. The PROBLEM became, this was misunderstood or misinterpreted enough to become "you have to make your new building LOOK like an old one". Those two things are not synonymous.

So...and stick with me because this...oddly enough seeming digression...is about to CIRCLE BACK to Jazz today (it wasn't my intention when I started writing this reply - ironic, no ?)....

 

[JayeNM]

.......The CHALLENGE really becomes (or should have become)...how can you design an edifice which both is repsectfully referential to the existing historical fabric which the codes intend to repair or create a continuity to...WITHOUT it being just a REPRODUCTION of a historical style or archetype ?

Th BEST architecture does just that. It "fits" important ways, it references historical context in certain ways, yet it aesthetically isn't just a recreation of a style from decades or generations ago.

Now...Jazz...starting with the Marsalis very egoistical and trust me, with great marketing/commercial INTENT - 'campaign' to 'save' straight-ahead in the 80's, which indeed brought about a rebirth of bop and other 50's-60's straight ahead subgenres, particularly, which isn't a bad thing...the PROBLEM TODAY is sorta similar to urban planning and architecture:

The 'movement' has created a sorta static dynamic of players learning the rules and mastering them, technically, very well....so good jazz players can blast out these great licks and talk about theory and post YT videos "explaining" a song in order for 'people to understand why it is SO great"....

BUT...what did NOT happen...is any sort of EVOLUTION of the previous form. So Jazz remains sorta stuck, no new developments really since Fusion.

There are Gatekeepers...and they can often be snobby, yeah....but the genre, which HAD always transformed over the decades and generations...has been STATIC for almost 50 years now. Heck....there aren't even NEW jazz standards circulating in high-tech realbooks....90% of the 'standards' song material is LITERALLY the exact same as it was in those 1974 paper volumes which were violating copyright laws and you had to seek out locally as if you were looking to buy heroin.

So: jazz musicians re-creating historical styles which had been done decades ago, just as architects and developers did...thinking THAT was a loyal adherence to the 'form'....arguably has 'diluted' the entire spirit and dynamic of the form itself....if you ascribe to Jazz being a dynamic genre as opposed to a Museum Piece.

 

[Zasterz]

Just realized that the OP hasn’t even returned to this forum since the day they dropped this turd of a topic. And I don’t actually know who they were referring to.

As far as a relationship between anime (or video game) music and jazz, I guess there’s a connection in probably a lot of Berklee or other “jazz college” students are currently trying to get into that industry since it’s a music composition field.

See for example this anime composer’s Reddit AMA (aka Q&A). If you’re a 20-something college student, this is probably a dream career, up there with Hans Zimmer or whoever:

https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/17cmxar/im_evan_call_composer_for_violet_evergarden_my/

 

[Pete Thomas]

since it exists as much as if not more than it did in 2007....but....

....but...it was a good discussion then and it's a good discission now with some new takes on it, even the Anime and architectural tangents.

The PROBLEM became, this was misunderstood or misinterpreted enough to become "you have to make your new building LOOK like an old one". Those two things are not synonymous.

In fact the architectural slant is very relevant both in my above example and I think also in your allusion to in "diluted the very spirit..." I say this because that very same conservation officer pointed out "pastiche is not good you see, it never really works." It's that dreaded word pastiche and I hate to say it because for quite some time a lot of my composing work to brief was actual pastiche.

And with musical pastiche, as with buildings it's almost impossible to get it right to the extent that now the word pastiche itself implies something isn't an exact replica, it is almost inevitably a diluted or even contaminated version of the original style as well as being a compromise that very often nobody is happy with. (Well, some clients did like my tunes🙂).

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just realized that the OP hasn’t even returned to this forum

They may well have done, incirrect last visit date was an anomaly in the import of the old software that could not accurately translate the last visit times. This may apply to any member who you se that joined before the new forum early 2009. I apologise for that

 

[JayeNM]

In fact the architectural slant is very relevant both in my above example and I think also in your allusion to in "diluted the very spirit..." I say this because that very same conservation officer pointed out "pastiche is not good you see, it never really works." It's that dreaded word pastiche and I hate to say it because for quite some time a lot of my composing work to brief was actual pastiche.

And with musical pastiche, as with buildings it's almost impossible to get it right to the extent that now the word pastiche itself implies something isn't an exact replica, it is almost inevitably a diluted or even contaminated version of the original style as well as being a compromise that very often nobody is happy with. (Well, some clients did like my tunes🙂).

Yes it becomes a problem, I personally think that problem is borne out of a misunderstanding...sometimes a misunderstanding by the creators (architects or musicians) other times a misunderstanding of the recipients (clients, enforcement agencies, or audience).

When is a musical composition a pastiche (or even just a replica) vs. "inspired by, containing allusions to, but not the same as ".... ????

 

[mark_addy]

....but...it was a good discussion then and it's a good discission now with some new takes on it, even the Anime and architectural tangents.

In fact the architectural slant is very relevant both in my above example and I think also in your allusion to in "diluted the very spirit..." I say this because that very same conservation officer pointed out "pastiche is not good you see, it never really works." It's that dreaded word pastiche and I hate to say it because for quite some time a lot of my composing work to brief was actual pastiche.

And with musical pastiche, as with buildings it's almost impossible to get it right to the extent that now the word pastiche itself implies something isn't an exact replica, it is almost inevitably a diluted or even contaminated version of the original style as well as being a compromise that very often nobody is happy with. (Well, some clients did like my tunes🙂).

I wonder if some of the problem with pastiche is falling into the 'uncanny valley'.

The architectural digressions are very interesting, and remind me of an art book I once tried to read (I am an engineer) by a bloke called Rookmaaker (I think), 'Modern Art and the Death of a Culture'. It sounds like a neo-con manifesto against rule-breaking and cultural innovation, which it kind-of is - except it was written in the 70s by a Dutch Calvinist, and is relevant to jazz (in my eyes) in that it gives some context for the movement from (say) bebop (full of bent rules, which I like, despite being born in 1970) to (say) a somewhat unfortunate free-jazz Archie Schepp album which I have never been able to get through a whole side of.

In architecture, innovation-by-rule-breaking maybe still happens, but physics intervenes. New constraints however can throw up interesting things, in that (for example in my city) they might force a new attempt at high-density housing, approached physically and socially in a rather different way to the 1960s approaches which in the main ended in regret. Another example from another hobby of mine is folks who fix mopeds - riding a moped being full of constraints and changing the travel experience from that on a fast bike. I don't know how new constraints might work in musical innovation. In the past I got a bigger buzz out of moving from being really, really bad on a new instrument to 'sort-of OK' than I did from putting hours in to move on from 'sort-of OK' (guess where I am now 🙂 ) but forcing the constraint that one might only play jazz on an instrument that one can't play seems a bit extreme!