Playing the saxophone Jazz Snobs...

[tris]

Lee

Parker... was the American Mozart...literally. The fact that he was composing and blowing those lines on the spot is beyond belief. Genius is an often misused word... but not in this case.

He is the greatest improviser ever... period. Bird opened the door for us... no question.

Your comment about repeating licks. When I was young and foolish i thought that this was weak. I later came to realise that this is Parker's voice... get familiar with a lot of solos by the same player of any instrument and those signature licks and variations crop up with amazing regularity.

Michael is right.. you gotta listen... the books do not capture what is going on. Put into context over what the drummer is doing, how the bassist is walking and how the pianist is comping. you got loads of different rhythms interacting as well as the basic flow of the harmony and melody. The accenting and exact phrasing gets lost in transcription.

The problem is that it is all happening at fast tempos, a lot of information to take in. I'll be very open and say I was much in your position when i first started to get into Bird... my ear was too weak to be able to pick out those lines at that time let alone hear them properly in context and the omibook was a crutch that helped me through the early stages.

I am not trying to have a go but you yourself know that your technical ability is at a far more advanced point in this time in comparison to your listening skills, you have admitted it yourself. When your ear improves you will start to notice things that you could not before. I stopped listening to CP for a few years and when I came back to his stuff with a much better ear... wow it was like someone took plugs out.

My ear is still not what it should be but I am starting to hear lines fully in context.... with regards to both the harmony and all the various rhythms. It has been a lot of graft but it has been worth it.

In a way I am envious of you I wish I had your attitude and your knowledge at your age. I am confident you can go as far as you ever want to!

 

[Linky Lee]

Cheers, Tris very kind words.

I like yourself have been working hard on my aural skills and have started seeing an improvement.

Though I'm not sure what bit of my practise I accredit this too. I think it is a combination of knowing cadence and traditional harmony through theory and just listening and listening to loads of this stuff apply the sound to the theory that is already there. I think it could also be a lot to do with singing and generally spending more time writing melodies and thereby learning what kind of works and doesn't.

I think I'm on the border of what you're trying to get at. At first when I heard Charlie I thought it was rubbish, like shredding on a guitar but on saxophone (I think you're a Via fan so sorry that probably offended you). A few months ago I was listening again and noticed some really nice bits, which is when I went and got the omnibook after giving transcription a go (another thing I've been doing to help the ear). Maybe I'll be posting in amazement in a few months time saying wow! This is awesome how did I miss this before!

 

[tris]

Linky

Kind words... statement of the facts as i see them!

Via.. used to be a fan... still some great music, "Passion & Warfare" is an album that any musician should check out! Got board of it.. I was a real Hendrix/metal head when I was in my early teens, then a prog rocker, which then became fusion and then other types of jazz.

I think you will get there quicker than I have. I wish I had read Kenny Werner's book and been ready to accept the teachings 12 years ago.

I was a great player and then kinda broke myself into pieces as a musician and became pretty dysfunctional. The harder I tried the worse it got. Putting the axe down in favor of the sax was like making a fresh start... I approached it like I had never played anything before. It is not an easy thing undoing mental damage I inflicted on myself.

Don't force yourself to like Bird... if you develop a taste that is cool. Knowing Parker well, even if you do not like it will help you in de-code everything that has come since, Coltrane for instance. To form an analogy: to fully understand a lot of Shakespeare you have to have read Chaucer.

PS don't over think stuff too much.. Switch off and let your subconscious mind work. Try not to worry about the learning mechanisms at work... you don't need to know and thinking about them is mental interference you want to avoid.

Have a bit more faith in yourself, lack of confidence caused me to start worrying about all these various aspects of my development and that was the top of the slippery slope.

 

[Bobby G]

King Crimson, eh tris? Which line-up(s) would that be out of the several hundred ? 😉 I have a bit of a penchant for the Bruford/Wetton rhythm section (saw 'em a few times too, once with crazed percussionist Jamie Muir) but I also love the Lizard album, a collision between KC and the prog-jazzers of the time. I do like Mel Collins playing throughout, and Fripp's dedication to guitar-playing is amazing, not to mention his mellotron skills.

I know what's being said about Bird, here - to be honest, much as I admire his achievements there are other players who I love more; I think a good point was made about signature riffs and licks, I guess most players have them. Probably they are what you fall back into playing without thinking too much while you are formulating the next leap of imagination, I don't suppose even someone as 'quick' as Bird was spontaneously composing every single note.

Another example would be the various versions of 'Favorite Things' by Trane - many of the runs, effects etc are quite similar from version to version, implying he had some plan of the general shape of the solo or tune.

Cheers, Bob

 

[tris]

I am a BIG fan of Crimson... I have a very "complete" collection.

and Yes.... and ELP and the good Genesis etc.... I was very into my prog rock when i was a youngster. (Still am but just the very goos stuff... my tastes have evolved as they do and only the very best stuff gets a revisit these days... so much music I have not heard yet.)

There are some very worn albums indeed... I think I am on the 5th copy of Tarkus?

 

[Bobby G]

Tarkus!! I have very unfortunate memories of that LP....

My prog-rock tastes at the time leant more towards the eccentric (earlier Genesis, Crimso, Hatfield & the North, Henry Cow, Stackridge, Arthur Brown etc) rather than the more purely virtuosic music like Yes and ELP. Mind you I also had a parallel fondness for pub-rock and pre-punk stuff like Brinsley Schwarz and Dr Feelgood. What this has to do with jazz snobbery I have no idea😉

Cheers, Bob

 

[tris]

Bob,

I have the feeling you would love this band i like called "Spock's Beard." Think very song orientated early genesis meets the better parts of Yes. They all play "period" instruments too so the sound that they have is super warm and lush. It is not horrifically complex but the playing is tight as Scotsman's hold on a fiver. Live... amazing!

I guy i know used to be the tour manager for Yes and then Wakeman.. LOL the stories he tells.... hates the buggers! :laugh: Rick used to get up and por a bottle of port and a bottle of wiskey into a jug and drink that for breafast no wonder he had the heart attack. no wonder Ron got tired of all the antics..

Tour manager... now that is a job I would loath.

Prog rock is a lot more snobby than jazz... well that is how I have found things

 

[robaldo]

Sorry to arrive late on the topic.

I was teaching a fella yesterday and told him there's four types of musican.

1) Can't play, bit shy, trying hard
2) Can't play, thinks they're ace (guitarists)
3) Can play, behave like an *******
4) Can play well, nice person

Did I miss anyone?

Oh, I nearly forgot. I also told him that if he's going to play jazz then he'd better start getting up himself, cos you're not allowed to have fun while you're doing it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Parker... was the American Mozart...literally.

Not sure we should be using the word literally in this context.

The fact that he was composing and blowing those lines on the spot is beyond belief. Genius is an often misused word... but not in this case.

He is the greatest improviser ever... period. Bird opened the door for us... no question

But was he? He was certainly an innovator back then but how much of that accolade is subjective?

 

[Targa]

Well if we are going to comment on posts 19 years old

English grammar ( my own particular area of snobbery)

Spelling

I wonder if Greywolf would mind my pointing out that spelling is a part of English Grammar.

 

[progger]

Pete, it's your house, your rules... but are we sure that original post needed to be raised from the dead? 😂 I'm all for an argument against people trying to pick on jazz snobs, though. Let's fight! Politely.

(I'd consider myself a music snob for sure, but not strictly a jazz snob – I dislike 90% of music of any genre, including jazz, but the good 10% supplies me with enough joy and fascination for multiple lifetimes.)

I strongly agree that Bird was not literally Mozart. That require him to be, literally, Mozart.

I also don't think he was the greatest improviser who ever lived, although he was certainly great. Some of his equally brilliant contemporaries, like Bud Powell, are likely underrated, since they moved modern music forward in similar ways and to a comparable degree, they just didn't share his spotlight as much. Dizzy did at the time, but seems to have fallen out of folks' awareness for some reason. He was Bird's equal, IMO, in all the areas for which Bird is celebrated perennially.

At any rate, there are a lot improvisers I love more than Bird, but I do love listening to him on record to this day, he was an undeniable badass. I can only imagine what it would have been like to hear him live or on a record in the 1940s, probably like getting smashed in the face with a sledgehammer of energy. I would have loved it, others would have been repulsed, but hey, I like Pantera and Slayer.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Pete, it's your house, your rules... but are we sure that original post needed to be raised from the dead? 😂 I'm all for an argument against people trying to pick on jazz snobs, though. Let's fight! Politely.

Well there’s no rules against reviving old threads. I would encourage it but with the caveat it should not be something redundant. There’s a lot of good stuff in the archives that very few current members were involved in so there may be more of those revived…

This topic seems to be something worth revisiting IMO. But it may be fair to say there may well be snobs in all genres, not just jazz.

 

[JayeNM]

Not sure we should be using the word literally in this context.

But was he? He was certainly an innovator back then but how much of that accolade is subjective?

OK, now WAIT...Our OWN CAPTAIN resurrected THIS one ....!???! You SURE you NOT just stirring up trouble ?😱

 

[Pete Thomas]

OK, now WAIT...Our OWN CAPTAIN resurrected THIS one ....!???! You SURE you NOT just stirring

No just good healthy debate, a touch of controversy.

 

[JayeNM]

 

[progger]

Well there’s no rules against reviving old threads. I would encourage it but with the caveat it should not be something redundant. There’s a lot of good stuff in the archives that very few current members were involved in so there may be more of those revived…

This topic seems to be something worth revisiting IMO. But it may be fair to say there may well be snobs in all genres, not just jazz.

I agree, and I actually enjoy a good necro-bump under those circumstances. Lots of good discussion and information in old forum threads!

 

[cappers]

The title reminded me of @Stephen Howard's 'The Jazz Bore' (Notes... from a small workshop)
The jazz bore

 

[wakyct]

I guess I'm not hanging out with the right crowd, I can honestly say I've never met a jazz snob in my life. I do know some people who don't like Steely Dan but I don't think that counts.

 

[dexdex]

I suspect many jazz snobs among the musicians I play with, pros like hobbyists. Just listening to David Sanborn in the car while commuting to rehearsals is beyond tolerance. Don’t even mention playing smooth jazz or Japanese animé tunes. Quelle horreur !

 

[mark_addy]

I guess I'm not hanging out with the right crowd, I can honestly say I've never met a jazz snob in my life. I do know some people who don't like Steely Dan but I don't think that counts.

You reminded me of when I found the 2nd hand lp 'Pretzel Logic' in someone's 'buy it for a quid' bin. My kids and I have been bouncing around the front room to 'night by night' their whole lives. It was timely, as we had to retire Ian Drury's 'wake up and make love to me' for quite a few years when I heard one of them (not talking long) saying 'aarrff way up yer back' 🙂 Now they're at university, and the younger revises to Bill Evans, which is rather nice when she's home. It's really cool when you offer 'you might like this' to your kids, and they do.

Edit to get on-topic - some of her young friends might think she's a snob for knowing who Bill Evans is. For some on here he's so famous / an obvious choice that perhaps the opposite applies. I suppose it is all contextual.