All profit supporting special needs music education and Help Musicians

Beginner Is Jazz Blues different to ‘ normal ‘ Jazz ?....

A

Acc closed 6441

Guest
I think we took the ball in the wrong direction. We should have asked, "What is 'normal jazz'?" The answer to that would contain the answer to the original question, sort of.
 

turf3

Member
Messages
565
Locality
Earth
Oh yeah, Cousin Mary is totally a blues. 12 bar blues, just with a flatted V chord instead of a regular V.

Trane loved the blues form.

And I often refer to the first held note in his fourth chorus as "all of jazz is here, in this one note." It's an indeterminate-pitch note that he bends and forms - that one note lasts a half second or less but if you want to understand the inflections that have come down to us all the way from the field hollers of 1750, there it is.
 
Last edited:

turf3

Member
Messages
565
Locality
Earth
I think we took the ball in the wrong direction. We should have asked, "What is 'normal jazz'?" The answer to that would contain the answer to the original question, sort of.
Show tunes and rhythm changes?

Thing is, you open a Real Book and the two most common forms are going to be 12 bar blues and rhythm changes. I'd guess a quarter of jazz tunes in common circulation - maybe more - are one of those two forms. At least another quarter of all jazz tunes in common circulation are show tunes - then the remaining half (probably less) are other stuff - tunes writtten specifically as jazz tunes, pop hits transformed, etc., etc.
 
A

Acc closed 6441

Guest
Show tunes and rhythm changes?

Thing is, you open a Real Book and the two most common forms are going to be 12 bar blues and rhythm changes. I'd guess a quarter of jazz tunes in common circulation - maybe more - are one of those two forms. At least another quarter of all jazz tunes in common circulation are show tunes - then the remaining half (probably less) are other stuff - tunes writtten specifically as jazz tunes, pop hits transformed, etc., etc.
Yeah, that's likely the case, Cole Porter, etc. I guess NOT BLUES would be cocktail piano, playing all those old show tunes and ballads. Even then, a little Dr John could be discreetly snuck in.
 

saxofiend

Member
Messages
156
Locality
Birmingham
(To the OP) Greetings again! I'd like to know where you saw or heard the name "jazz blues"?
I've never heard of the two words being used in that order as a thing, a concept, a sound or an attitude. What I have heard over the years is blue jazz, bluesy jazz, a jazz song that is a blues, meaning its structure and chords. I think the source of conficting opinions, which are fine, is that the term, if it exists at all, is ambiguous. It has no meaning to me at all.
Hi buddy , tbh I have no idea at all where I saw or heard the name “ jazz blues “ .I have no knowledge except alot of curiosity , and I am happy to listen to those with more experience and knowledge than me........I will be happy when I can purr out low B flat very very quietly .I am finding it very very hard , but it is OK .You only feel good when you accomplish hard targets .kind wishes .
 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
Café Supporter
Messages
8,782
Locality
Beautiful Springville, Utah USA
It just dawned on me that in six pages of discussion about blues music unless I missed it, there has not been one mention of the traditional form of blues lyrics. The most common form of blues is made up of 12 bar phrases. These 12 bars can be further divided into three groups that are 4 bars each a bit reminiscent of "call and response" in earlier song forms.

1st 4 bars. . . . . . . . Opening statement
2nd 4 bars. . . . . . . Opening statement repeated exactly or with slight variation
3rd 4 bars. . . . . . . .Response or answer to statement

Buddy Boy Hawkins - Snatch It Back Blues lyrics
Spoken:
Listen here people, these are my blues, I brought them all the way from Birmingham.
You know when it feels good to me it's bound to feel good to you
I'm goin to see how'd you like that?

I'm gonna lay my head out on some lonesome railroad track
I say, I'm gonna lay my head, mama, ah out on some railroad track
Well when that train come along, I'm gonna snatch it back

Tell me brownskin mama where did you stay last night?
I said, tell me mama where did you stay last night?
With your hair all down, your face ain't ever wiped

I say I love you pretty mama, ah'ou'ah don't care what you do
I say I love you pretty , ah'ou'ah don't care what you do
You go to your black man mama, I stick to my gal

I say if you don't need your black woman you gonna have to carry some heavy stall
If you don't want me mama you got to carry some heavy stall
How come I say that? Because I can get more jet black women than a freight train can haul

 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
Café Supporter
Messages
8,782
Locality
Beautiful Springville, Utah USA
fwiw 12tone (a youtube talking hand, not everyone's cup of tee. Maybe better listened to than watched!) did an interesting discussion on this recently...
Wow. Don't get me wrong. I love this stuff, but halfway through the presentation my mind started to wander. I sometimes tend to over "anal-ize" things, but that presenter is way out of my "league". Perhaps I can come back later and consume it "a bite at a time".

1616864381909.png
 

mizmar

Senior Member
Messages
1,021
Locality
Trondheim, Norway
Wow. Don't get me wrong. I love this stuff, but halfway through the presentation my mind started to wander. I sometimes tend to over "anal-ize" things, but that presenter is way out of my "league". Perhaps I can come back later and consume it "a bite at a time".
Well yes. For the hammer every problem is clearly a nail... But I like to see different tools in the box apply themselves to a given problem.
 
Messages
338
Locality
rome
Hello @mizmar thanks for adding my video to this discussion. However in that video I talked about a tune that I wrote and recorded on my "Mr Jobhopper" album, and it is an "atypical" blues. It is based on a 14 bar chorus, has a different chord and a bridge just for the solos, so I would not choose it as a "typical jazz blues example".
I went back to the beginning of this topic to see what was about.
I don't know if I misunderstood it.
I would consider the differences between the "normal" blues and the "jazz" blues starting from an harmonic perspective.
Generally speaking they both use a 12 bar chorus as a basis (sometimes 16 bar, but the typical form is 12).
Blues and rock blues tune often use less chords than bebop.
So, for example if you take a blues like "Red house"" by Hendrix and "Billie's bounce" by Parker you will realize that Parker's tune has more chords.
Bebop incorporates II V I and turnaround cadenzas, while Hendrix used just three chords I7 IV7 and V7.
This does not mean that one is better than the other, they were both geniuses! But surely you must dig deeper into the harmony to play bebop.
Another important aspect is rhythm, jazz blues is manly built on a swing feel, but sometimes both jazz and bebop use a shuffle...
@jbtsax wrote a strong blues characteristic that can be applied both to the "normal" blues and to the jazz blues.
Anyway this is a HUUUGE topic and it would need many many pages to cover it, maybe you gave me something to discuss about in one of my next videos....haha!
 

mizmar

Senior Member
Messages
1,021
Locality
Trondheim, Norway
However in that video I talked about a tune that I wrote and recorded on my "Mr Jobhopper" album, and it is an "atypical" blues.
Hi. I realised that and posted it to exactly illustrate the scope of the discussion in a living art form. It all contributes!

Please do do that video!!
 

Staff online

Popular Discussions

Top Bottom