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Beginner Is Jazz Blues different to ‘ normal ‘ Jazz ?....

saxofiend

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Birmingham
Hi all !

Can some experts in the know pls explain to a beginner like me the difference between Jazz and Jazz Blues ....

Or is there no diff at all ?

I really don t know ! Forgive me for my ignorance ......

Is it just playing with a ‘ moody ‘ sad etc...feeling or is there alot more to it ?

Again , I really don t know .Or is the bluesy colour in play just something that comes after decades of practise etc...

Kind Wishes to evefybody ..
 

LostCircuits

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Black Forest
That's a pretty loaded question and I am not going into gory detail but just within the genre of blues, there are so many different subcategories starting from Mississippi Blues to Delta Blues and Chicago Blues and what not that it depends on who you are talking to. There are some who say anything on a 1-4-5 12 or 16 bar scale with the "blue notes" used is a blues and I kind of agree with that at least to the point where I say it has blues roots. But if you talk to the die hard practitioners of one or the other subcategories, you may get a very different answer.

Here are two nice examples of just some very basic blues:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioOzsi9aHQQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwc7ZEYfWYc


Jazz is often referred to as having developed from blues and there are a lot of commonalities but a lot of jazz is based on a 2-5-1 chord sequence and there are again so many subcategories from Bebop to Hard Bop and whatever (you could write a dissertation on any of them). These subcategories have developed their own "language" and especially for saxophone, one of the best "summaries" is this intro by Bob Mintzer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxXsf9b4kMM


Disclaimer, this is the simplest description I could come up with: "Do you talk like this or do you have something that is a little more expressive and easier to listen to?" Kind of like David Lynch in Twin Peaks vs. - well, you'll know what I mean if you listen to it.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
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I think it can become simpler than that.

I don't see the question as what is the difference between Jazz and Blues ?

I see it as inquiring about the term "Jazz Blues".

To me, it's a subcategory of Jazz...the way, say "Bebop" or "Swing" of "Latin" is used as a prefix to "Jazz".

Who, for example, are artists which that term conjures up ?

Lou Donaldson is one player who comes to mind.

Boogaloo Jones is another player who comes to mind.

I consider the term to differ from "Blues", which has its own sub-genres and iterations.

To the OP's second question: it is about playing tunes which probably have a blues progression to the chord progression, or a blues-like progression to it....two examples of which were noted in the reply preceding mine....

...so it's more than just playing 'moodily' or with sad soulness (although this is an element to some players' styles).

One can play moodily to a common jazz chord progression...a rhythm changes progression for example ..... and even choose a bluesy tempo for it...but it isn't really gonna sound particularly 'bluesy', IMHO.
It's also about the player's choice of notes while improvising (or even playing the head).

Damn...:oops:this is a harder question to answer than I initially though it'd be.
 
Last edited:

nigeld

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I would sat that “Jazz” is a music genre and that “Blues” is another genre.
The two genres overlap, and ”Jazz Blues” is music that is in both genres.
 

LostCircuits

Member
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482
Locality
Black Forest
I think it can become simpler than that.

I don't see the question as what is the difference between Jazz and Blues ?

I see it as inquiring about the term "Jazz Blues".

To me, it's a subcategory of Jazz...the way, say "Bebop" or "Swing" of "Latin" is used as a prefix to "Jazz".

Who, for example, are artists which that term conjures up ?

Lou Donaldson is one player who comes to mind.

Boogaloo Jones is another player who comes to mind.

I consider the term to differ from "Blues", which has its own sub-genres and iterations.
Yes, but I can also play a jazz blues using Bebop language. But I see your point and it's well taken
 

saxofiend

Member
Messages
156
Locality
Birmingham
I think it can become simpler than that.

I don't see the question as what is the difference between Jazz and Blues ?

I see it as inquiring about the term "Jazz Blues".

To me, it's a subcategory of Jazz...the way, say "Bebop" or "Swing" of "Latin" is used as a prefix to "Jazz".

Who, for example, are artists which that term conjures up ?

Lou Donaldson is one player who comes to mind.

Boogaloo Jones is another player who comes to mind.

I consider the term to differ from "Blues", which has its own sub-genres and iterations.

To the OP's second question: it is about playing tunes which probably have a blues progression to the chord progression, or a blues-like progression to it....two examples of which were noted in the reply preceding mine....

...so it's more than just playing 'moodily' or with sad soulness (although this is an element to some players' styles).

One can play moodily to a common jazz chord progression...a rhythm changes progression for example ..... and even choose a bluesy tempo for it...but it isn't really gonna sound particularly 'bluesy', IMHO.
It's also about the player's choice of notes while improvising (or even playing the head).

Damn...:oops:this is a harder question to answer than I initially though it'd be.
Well I can only ask the question , to answer I am sure I need atleast 20 yrs playing Sax ......thk u for answering it has been v helpful.kind wishes .
 

saxofiend

Member
Messages
156
Locality
Birmingham
I am a dumbo here so any answers are very much appreciated and no doubt will take me alot of time to digest .thks !
 

saxofiend

Member
Messages
156
Locality
Birmingham
That's a pretty loaded question and I am not going into gory detail but just within the genre of blues, there are so many different subcategories starting from Mississippi Blues to Delta Blues and Chicago Blues and what not that it depends on who you are talking to. There are some who say anything on a 1-4-5 12 or 16 bar scale with the "blue notes" used is a blues and I kind of agree with that at least to the point where I say it has blues roots. But if you talk to the die hard practitioners of one or the other subcategories, you may get a very different answer.

Here are two nice examples of just some very basic blues:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioOzsi9aHQQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwc7ZEYfWYc


Jazz is often referred to as having developed from blues and there are a lot of commonalities but a lot of jazz is based on a 2-5-1 chord sequence and there are again so many subcategories from Bebop to Hard Bop and whatever (you could write a dissertation on any of them). These subcategories have developed their own "language" and especially for saxophone, one of the best "summaries" is this intro by Bob Mintzer.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxXsf9b4kMM


Disclaimer, this is the simplest description I could come up with: "Do you talk like this or do you have something that is a little more expressive and easier to listen to?" Kind of like David Lynch in Twin Peaks vs. - well, you'll know what I mean if you listen to it.
Thk u for your detailed answer I will chew on it for a ling time .kind wishes
 

Jimmymack

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I’m not familiar with the term jazz blues. The blues form, typically the 12 bar form is often used in jazz and hundreds of jazz tunes have used it as a base. Jazz musicians will typically use the jazz language to interpret them particularly the extensions of the chord typically flattened. The best way to get familiar is to listen to jazz players playing the blues, there are whole albums given over to it.

In jazz there are dozens of adaptations to the basic blues form some of which take it to some seemingly extreme places, check out Blues for Alice by Charlie Parker, nothing like the standard blues changes but a blues nonetheless.

One of the reasons for the popularity of the blues among jazzers is its flexibility, you can do anything you like with it within its loose confines, forget the chords, forget the harmony and just play, although it helps if you know what you are doing and I don’t recommend it unless you do, or you can play with the generally accepted form and techniques and be equally expressive. It depends on what you want or need to say. Coltrane was a master of the blues as he was a master of most things, listen to Blue Train and then try Equinox. Then try Goodbye Pork Pie Hat by Charles Mingus.

This probably doesn’t answer your question satisfactorily but going and listening should.
 
Last edited:

saxofiend

Member
Messages
156
Locality
Birmingham
I’m not familiar with the term jazz blues. The blues form, typically the 12 bar form is often used in jazz and hundreds of jazz tunes have used it as a base. Jazz musicians will typically use the jazz language to interpret them particularly the extensions of the chord typically flattened. The best way to get familiar is to listen to jazz players playing the blues, there are whole albums given over to it.

In jazz there are dozens of adaptations to the basic blues form some of which take it to some seemingly extreme places, check out Blues for Alice by Charlie Parker, nothing like the standard blues changes but a blues nonetheless.

One of the reasons for the popularity of the blues among jazzers is its flexibility, you can do anything you like with it within its loose confines, forget the chords, forget the harmony and just play, although it helps if you know what you are doing and I don’t recommend it unless you do, or you can play with the generally accepted form and techniques and be equally expressive. It depends on what you want or need to say. Coltrane was a master of the blues as he was a master of most things, listen to Blue Train and then try Equinox. Then try Goodbye Pork Pie Hat by Charles Mingus.

This probably doesn’t answer your question satisfactorily but going and listening should.
Thk u for your detailed answer and I will hit you tube and follow your listening suggestions .kind wishes .
 

jbtsax

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To make this topic even more diverse all one has to do is add "Rhythm and" in front of "Blues" to come up with a different "genre" which includes elements of Rock, Soul, Funk, etc. Since "Rhythm and Blues" tends to have a more popular appeal, when a lot of younger folks hear the term "blues" it is the style and sound they think of.

 

saxofiend

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Birmingham
Bessie smith is amazing , did she ever sing with sax players ? Does anybody know at all ? kw
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
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New Mexico, US
Well I can only ask the question , to answer I am sure I need atleast 20 yrs playing Sax ......thk u for answering it has been v helpful.kind wishes .
Absolutely....and it was a GREAT question. As I suggested - at first blush it seemed 'easy' to answer - but actually, it is sorta challenging to answer, as the replies of pretty much everyone here are illustrating.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
2,334
Locality
New Mexico, US
To make this topic even more diverse all one has to do is add "Rhythm and" in front of "Blues" to come up with a different "genre" which includes elements of Rock, Soul, Funk, etc. Since "Rhythm and Blues" tends to have a more popular appeal, when a lot of younger folks hear the term "blues" it is the style and sound they think of.

Oomph. As someone around the same age as you...I personally agree with everything you wrote there.

BUT.... (and this is a bit OT, so I apologize)...

As someone who is in a gigging band which leans towards the funky-groove oriented-bluesy side of things....and occasionally has to recruit new members or subs using online ads, etc...I wanna report this:

"R&B" ...to a person over, say, 45 years old.....and "R&B"...to a person in their teens-late 30's....(or "contemporary R&B" perhaps as a more appropriate moniker)...

...are VASTLY DIFFERENT genres, although they use the same name.

If you wanna double check this....one can do a websearch or YT search with the query "who are some of the best (or most popular) R&B artists of today ?"

Viewing/listening to the results of those searches actually caused me repeated apoplectic fits :w00t:
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
2,334
Locality
New Mexico, US
I’m not familiar with the term jazz blues. The blues form, typically the 12 bar form is often used in jazz and hundreds of jazz tunes have used it as a base. Jazz musicians will typically use the jazz language to interpret them particularly the extensions of the chord typically flattened. The best way to get familiar is to listen to jazz players playing the blues, there are whole albums given over to it.

In jazz there are dozens of adaptations to the basic blues form some of which take it to some seemingly extreme places, check out Blues for Alice by Charlie Parker, nothing like the standard blues changes but a blues nonetheless.

One of the reasons for the popularity of the blues among jazzers is its flexibility, you can do anything you like with it within its loose confines, forget the chords, forget the harmony and just play, although it helps if you know what you are doing and I don’t recommend it unless you do, or you can play with the generally accepted form and techniques and be equally expressive. It depends on what you want or need to say. Coltrane was a master of the blues as he was a master of most things, listen to Blue Train and then try Equinox. Then try Goodbye Pork Pie Hat by Charles Mingus.

This probably doesn’t answer your question satisfactorily but going and listening should.
Good post, but IMHO...Equinox or Porkpie...or Mingus or Coltrane.

None come to mind when one brings up "Jazz Blues" as a genre (and it is a term which is somewhat commonly in use on this side of the Pond, actually).

There are artists who have forged an identity (whether intentional or not) of being Jazz Blues artists, again using the term as a genre term - so the term actually embodies more than 'just' a jazz artist playing a blues-structured/inflected sorta tune.

..then there are Jazz Blues tunes as well...which are along the lines of what you state, when the term is being used as a descriptor of the composition type.

So you post was great, in that IMHO it did in a way inquire (whether you intended it to or not) as to how the term was being used/understood by the OP.
 

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