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Beginner Is Jazz Blues different to ‘ normal ‘ Jazz ?....

Dave Dunn

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No. Wrong.

Saints is 8 bars, I - I - I - V - I - IV - V - I. Not a blues form.
Silent Night is 24 bars.
I - I - I - I
V - V- -I - I
IV - IV - I - I
IV- IV - I - I
V - V - I - I
I - V - I - I
Also nothing like a blues form.
I didn't want to say 12 bar, but I didn't know how else to explain. Strip them back, and they are definitely blues, perhaps even country progressions. If you could only use C, G, F, (for instance, I play SN A, D, E) you can play them. I play SN in the style of "That's Alright Mama", same chords, same feel.
Whether that's blues or not is personal opinion.

*It occurs to me now that what I call "When the Saints", is actually "Saints Rock n Roll" by Bill Haley and his Comets, so maybe it is slightly different to the traditional progression.
 
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Dave Dunn

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Screenshot_20210325-125226~2.jpeg

I'm sorry, but that looks like a blues progression to me!
 
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Acc closed 6441

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Two distinct things:
Blues as a genre
Blues changes (of which a large number of variations of I IV V)
 

turf3

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View attachment 17723

I'm sorry, but that looks like a blues progression to me!
How can

I - I - I - V
I - IV - I/V - I

Look like

I - I - I - I
IV - IV - I - I
V - IV - I - I

????

I think you need to review again the blues progression. Saints isn't even close to a 12 bar blues. Going to the V first gives it a very different character than going to the IV first.
 

Colin the Bear

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So...who is Ivy?
Did she sing the blues?
Is a V7 a later development of V1 and V2. Bzzzzzz
Woke up this morning feeling for my shoes... :confused:
 

Dave Dunn

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South Australia
How can

I - I - I - V
I - IV - I/V - I

Look like

I - I - I - I
IV - IV - I - I
V - IV - I - I

????

I think you need to review again the blues progression. Saints isn't even close to a 12 bar blues. Going to the V first gives it a very different character than going to the IV first.
We'll have to agree to disagree, it seems like you were studying music while I was playing it, and I find your attitude offensive, you're not worth talking to further, I'll just ignore this thread from now on.
 

turf3

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I've been playing blues music for money for 42 years. What's your background?

Opinionated ignorance is never a good look.
 
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Acc closed 6441

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Hi all !

the difference between Jazz and Jazz Blues ....
(To the OP) Greetings again! I'd like to know where you saw or heard the name "jazz blues"?
I've never heard of the two words being used in that order as a thing, a concept, a sound or an attitude. What I have heard over the years is blue jazz, bluesy jazz, a jazz song that is a blues, meaning its structure and chords. I think the source of conficting opinions, which are fine, is that the term, if it exists at all, is ambiguous. It has no meaning to me at all.
 

turf3

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Which, interestingly enough, is not a blues form.

This comes back to my earlier point that the word "blues" can be used in a number of different ways: as a song form, as a stylistic way of playing music, and as an entire genre of African-American improvised music that's closely related to jazz but not identical.
 
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which is somewhat commonly in use on this side of the Pond, actually
My entire career took place over there (so far) and I never heard it, or have no recollection of hearing it. True, hanging out with musicians, they don't tend to use those kinds of terms among themselves.

I maintain that most of the comments are correct, being as it's two different things, blues, the music and blues changes. @saxofiend you have no reason to apologize!
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
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My entire career took place over there (so far) and I never heard it, or have no recollection of hearing it. True, hanging out with musicians, they don't tend to use those kinds of terms among themselves.

I maintain that most of the comments are correct, being as it's two different things, blues, the music and blues changes. @saxofiend you have no reason to apologize!
My entire career has also been here, playing out since age 15 (I am 57)...in jazz circles, common term East and West coast, IMHO.

I was never implying your comments were 'incorrect', BTW. Not certain what your last sentence is referring to (?)

Merely stating the term is used both as a descriptor of a composition, and as a sub-genre of Jazz :cool:
 
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My entire career has also been here, playing out since age 15 (I am 57)...in jazz circles, common term East and West coast, IMHO.

I was never implying your comments were 'incorrect', BTW. Not certain what your last sentence is referring to (?)

Merely stating the term is used both as a descriptor of a composition, and as a sub-genre of Jazz :cool:
I didn't take anything in your reply to be an argument. I'm flabbergasted that so much time was spent on the symantics. I don't know what you didn't know what I was referring to :) Blues music and blues changes? In my mind, they're different, and hence all the other argument, or disagreement.

I think we are in agreement about blues, both contexts are clear to me, I've already said it seems obvious when you compare "play the blues" and "play a blues". If everyone is going to state their bona fides, I started playing "blues" copying the Stones in high school in the sixties, then the people they were copying like BB, Albert Collins, Albert King (my alltime favorite) and that was nearly 60 years ago. Between 1972 and 1981, I played guitar for Sugarcane Harris, John Lee Hooker, and Freddy King, so I have an idea of what blues music is. We (with Sugarcane) did a tour in Canada around then, opening for John Lee. JL and Freddy had the same manager as us. Mid-seventies the tours to Europe, Aus/NZ and Asia were with John Mayall with great players like Red Holloway. Stories? I've got 'em.
But my knowledge of jazz was more from living with and hanging with L.A. musicians who played it, I never have actually played jazz in any consistent way. My autodidactic studies of music made me aware of blues changes, and their jazz variations. John Lee played the blues, but rarely blues changes. Look at "Boom, Boom, Boom" and a lot of his stuff just stayed in E forever and than all of a sudden, he jumped to A at some random point. You had to hear that and instatly react! That is the blues. At the last "blues-rock" gig I did in 1992 with Canned Heat -- damn, that was a lifetime ago -- at a blues festival, there were a couple of dozen acts and almost every song anyone played was 12- bars of the usual I IV V. The variation and nuances in the set, as I know you're well aware come more from tempo and drum groove. Shuffles, New Orleans, 12/8 blues ballad, funk and push beats.

Bottom line, though is either you can play the blues or blues changes or you can't yet, but will do if you work at it. It is much more a matter of attitude and hearing, more than facility. My own switch to the alto will, I hope, see the work I'm doing now rewarded some day, should I live long enough, with actual playing out. Like all of you, I miss that a lot. I'm still puzzled by original question which has no good or simple answer and frazzled a few nerves, apparently.
 

turf3

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Right, so you've got experience in what I called "the blues genre of music".

There's the blues form, most typically 12 bar, etc., you know all this.

And there's "bluesy style".

I don't know exactly what OP meant by "jazz blues" but I would assume he was asking for clarification of a term - if someone mentioned that term to me I would assume they meant jazz played using the blues form(s), and/or a "bluesy" style of jazz (imagine, if you will, a tune like "Someone to Watch over Me" (totally not a blues tune), as played by Lou Donaldson; then imagine it as played by Myron Floren; then imagine it as played by Tito Puente's orchestra. One of these renditions will be more "bluesy"" than the other two.

Any competent jazz player will be able to improvise over blues changes (including all their variants) just as if they were rhythm changes or Giant Steps changes or How High the Moon changes or Solar changes.
 
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There's the blues form, most typically 12 bar, etc., you know all this.

And there's "bluesy style".
As far as I've seen, we are in agreement. I think you have a good point, there's actually a band somewhere that plays all Beatles songs as if there were blues. Yes, you can play a beautify major seventh-y ballad as a bluesy tune. Also, in my own subjective feeling, Coltrane's Spiritual is blues and played in a very bluesy way way. And it's one of my favorite Coltrane recordings of all time. Equinox is a blues, and fairly bluesy after the intro. Is it safe to say Cousin Mary is a jazz blues? Maybe it's dawning on me!
 

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