Beginner impro Is B# the same note as C?

[cappers]

I would like to check something please, just want to ensure I'm correct.

I have a piece in E Major so the key sig has F# C# G# D#. The intro is C# B# C# A C# B C# A repeated 2x.

I think B# is enharmonic to C so do I play C natural or C# as in the key sig?

Thank you.

 

[BigMartin]

I would guess that the underlying chord is C# major or something similar with 7 sharps.

not that it matters for present purposes, but my guess would a chromatic lower neighbour to the third of an A major chord (IV chord in E major).

 

[Pete Effamy]

not that it matters for present purposes, but my guess would a chromatic lower neighbour to the third of an A major chord (IV chord in E major).

That won’t sound too smooth.

 

[BigMartin]

If I remember O level maths from 60 years ago:
12! - factorial- is the product of the integers
The factors of 12 are 1,2,3,4,6,12
Combination is n!/(n-r)!
Permutation is (n!/(n-r)!)r!
Or something like that, @BigMartin?

IIRC when the order doesn't matter, it is a combination i.e. n!/(n-r)!

n = the set or population,
r = subset of n or sample set

Combinations (order doesn't matter): n! / ( r! (n-r)! )
Permutations (Order does matter): n! / (n-r)!

Not bad after 60 years, @Targa, but dont go designing any mouse traps until you've done a bit of revision.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have a piece in E Major so the key sig has F# C# G# D#.

Are you sure it isn’t in C#m? That would very often have B# as the leading note (7th degree of harmonic minor)

A G#7 chord as the dominant of C#(minor) has a very definite B#. It could also be a secondary dominant in E of course but this may be getting a bit complex for a beginner thread.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That won’t sound too smooth.

I presume you were saying a C# major chord to an A major chord. That’s a very particular sound, and unless followed by particular chord(s) it’s not a great movement of chords.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I presume you were saying a C# major chord to an A major chord. That’s a very particular sound, and unless followed by particular chord(s) it’s not a great movement of chords.

Sorry, I read it in connection with turf mentioning the C# major.
I put them together and like most of this thread came up with the number 12

 

[skeller047]

The factors of 12 are 1,2,3,4,6,12

That’s what I meant by the word “factors”. I applaud @cappers for going off on a tangent based on English (although in pool, English is used to distort the tangent. Didn’t mean to snooker you there…)

However we all have to be mindful of a tendency to overcomplicate. 12! is a big number. I am not sure, but it’s possible that I have played that many notes in my life. Permutations seem more appropriate when discussing music, since order matters. And then there is the time factor (see what I did there?) Physicists or cosmologists are welcome to bring in relativistic reverberations…

What was the topic again?

E! Major.

Guitar keys notwithstanding, blue is always the right answer.

 

[cappers]

This is the piece, Attics of My Life. Looks like E Maj but may well be C# Major with the same 4 sharps?

The phrase in question is the 2 opening bars, which starts on low C# followed by B# C# A.
The first note of the melody is E.

Thank you.

 

[cappers]

That’s what I meant by the word “factors”. I applaud @cappers for going off on a tangent based on English (although in pool, English is used to distort the tangent. Didn’t mean to snooker you there…)

Doh! Initially thought of 1,2,3,4,6,12 as the factors of 12 but that seemed too low hence factorial 12.
Must have muddled my permutations with my combinations!

Anyway a bit off-topic? I would like to play the above....... 🙂

 

[skeller047]

This is the piece, Attics of My Life. Looks like E Maj but may well be C# Major with the same 4 sharps?

Definitely E major. The chord is A major. The B# is a lower chromatic neighbor (of C# in this case), a very common thing to play when decorating an arpeggio.

Think of these kind of decorations like melodic filigree. Pretty, adds interest and artistic energy, but not fundamental to the structure.

 

[skeller047]

Doh! Initially thought of 1,2,3,4,6,12 as the factors of 12 but that seemed too low hence factorial 12.
Must have muddled my permutations with my combinations!

Sorry -it’s relatively early where I am, and my mind likes to float a bit when I wake up. It usually takes me a couple of hours before I have made the complete transition from sleep.

What I was referring to was ways to divide the octave evenly. There are some interesting scalar constructs (diminished scale, whole tone scale) that have symmetrical forms because they are based on factors of 12, and there are some harmonic constructs also based on these kind of divisions. As I said, deep and wide.

The major scale has some intresting symmetries also (look up “tetrachord”), and as I mentioned before, best to concentrate early studies there. But do not neglect the blues 🙂

 

[cappers]

Definitely E major. The chord is A major. The B# is a lower chromatic neighbor (of C# in this case), a very common thing to play when decorating an arpeggio.

Think of these kind of decorations like melodic filigree. Pretty, adds interest and artistic energy, but not fundamental to the structure.

Thank you @skeller047

So much to learn, especially chords and what they mean.
Yes re decorations, I find the opening bars sweet, di do di la di da di la di do di la di da di la so fa

Final question please, as it's in E Major, I play it in F# Major on my tenor if I want to be in tune with the backing track, otherwise it doesn't matter?

 

[BigMartin]

Sorry, I read it in connection with turf mentioning the C# major.
I put them together and like most of this thread came up with the number 12

No, I meant the whole phrase over an Amaj7 (or A7). It's not easy to be clear about these things.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The B# is a lower chromatic neighbor (of C# in this case), a very common thing to play when decorating an arpeggio.

Yes indeed. That's what I call a pretend leading note, or a neighbour note and it's way better as I sad earlier to have a B# than having C ♮ and then have to show a # accidental on the following C# to cancel out the ♮ rather than just leaving it assumed by the key sig.

This is a good case for being enharmonically correct. As C# is in the key sig, if you used C natural you'd have to keep cancelling the ♮ instead of just leaving the C# using the accidental from the key sig. I didn't articulate that well, try it and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Targa]

Must have muddled my permutations with my combinations!

That looks like you got your curlies caught in your undies.

 

[Ivan]

My dear suffering wife says she has not seen me so enthusiastic and committed about something in all our nearly 47 years together, and she's enjoying me playing. Win-win!

It's nice to know you finally get on

 

[atwl77]

Final question please, as it's in E Major, I play it in F# Major on my tenor if I want to be in tune with the backing track, otherwise it doesn't matter?

Yes.
You could also play in E Major but transpose the backing track to D Major.

 

[thomsax]

When playing in keys like C# and F# and you are going to play natural C and F instead of C#/F# a cross (down to the right) is often used. Is that wrong? I have seen double crosses as well.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The x means double sharp, ie the note is sharpened twice. So Cx would be an the enharmonic note of D♮

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"This is the piece, Attics of My Life. Looks like E Maj but may well be C# Major with the same 4 sharps?"

C# minor has 4 sharps
C# Major has 7 sharps.
The B# is just a note in the slightly dissonant intro.
Put on the blinders and practice
the horns. Memorize scales, arpeggios and tunes. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶