Saxophones Is an upgrade necessarily a Selmer or Yamaha?

[saxteacher]

Hello there

I am the offending sax teacher in question about which this topic focuses on.

I now feel that I have to explain my thoughts and feelings about the sax in question, as many of you have been talking about me and my opinions without knowing what my opinions actually are.

When told by my pupil that they had bought a new Hanson sax I was wary, after all when you're investing money into an area which very little is known, Im the kind of person that doesn't want to be fleeced or blindfolded, and neither do I want my pupils and their families to be.

However, when the sax arrived I did keep an open mind. The sax has a vintage finish, and in my experience, these finishes can sometimes do more harm then good, restricting the sound of the sax by choking it with the finish paint / lacquer / whatever you would like to call it.

In this case the sound the sax made seemed ok, but it could be vastly improved if time was spent finding a mouthpiece that suits the player and the sax. However, after tuning the bottom octave (or so) of the sax, when playing in the higher octave the tuning was really out. and I don't believe in having a sax that's only in tune in the lower half of the instruments range, this feeling was echoed by the experienced saxophonist who played it when my pupil took it in to her school.

I knew when I played on the sax that it was a well built instrument with good action under the fingers, but the intonation was seriously letting it down.

Also, on a cosmetic note, where the sax has been engraved, the finish is already starting to oxidise and flake off, this is also noticeable on some of the keys as well, but I do realise the sax is ex demo. and as long as the sax plays good i don't really care what it looks like.

I was also wary of the material used to make the sax. the family bought this sax to last, and I don't want to tell them some time in the future that they need to buy a new sax. After all, the pupil in question is progressing at a great pace in classical, jazz and pop music. She plays in various school ensembles and the sax has got to be strong as it has to put up with a lot of wear and tear, I don't want it to crumble at the first sign of trouble.

After the sax had been 'set up' correctly back at Hansons, it now has a much better intonation than before.

Thanks for letting me justify myself to you.

SaxTeacher

PS The same professional saxophonist who played the sax and said the sax had good intonation (after the set up) was my teacher once, and when he told me that i needed to upgrade my sax, i needed to buy a selmer, and that was that. I am a perfectly happy owner of a Selmer Series III Tenor and a Yamaha Soprano(Both of which have never let me down).

 

[Rogerb]

Thank you SaxTeacher, for taking the trouble to put your side of the story..... it is very easy to make incorrect assumptions when you only hear part of it.

I don't like 'Vintage finishes' either, but from a purely aesthetic point-of-view.... I wouldn't want to get into the thorny discussion of the possible effect of finish/material on sound .
I just like saxes to be gold (lacquered or plated) 🙂

I do think, though, that the time when Selmer and Yamaha were (maybe) the only companies who could be relied-on to provide professional-quality, reliable saxophones are long gone (if, indeed, there ever was such a time 😉 )

If I were about to buy a new sax, I'd certainly listen-to and consider my teacher's advice, but I wouldn't appreciate it if he attempted to 'dictate' what I must buy.
I know he wouldn't but a few do.

I am really pleased you managed to get things sorted-out and hope you and your pupil(s) continue to make such good progress.

 

[Linky Lee]

Thanks for your input, It's good to get the story from different perspectives.

I'm not one to believe the finish does anything for the sound though. Material of sax I feel differently about after comparing many Yanigasawa 901 and 902's. I would of said this didn't make a difference a few months ago.

What is your worry about the material the Hanson is made out of? I find the saxophone to be very solidly built and satisfyingly heavier than most.

I'm quite baffled by the 'tuning up' of the bottom octave. How did you go about that?

 

[Linky Lee]

Sorry, double post.

These are so annoying!

 

[saxteacher]

Just to further clarify a few points:

I feel that the material that the sax is made of is an important feature, after a trying out an Earlham sax for another pupil I found that the keys could be bent out of shape quite easily, meaning that the sax was made out of a soft material, that could not withstand a lot of wear and tear. as a result of this I am always interested in the material that a sax is made out of, if it won't last long, save your money!

I am not the kind of teacher who dictates what saxophone a saxophonist should get, each to their own, I say. but i do think people who freely admit they don't know much about an instrument should always make an informed decision, if the teacher is the only one with a vague idea you should at least trust them to a certain extent.

A great sax professional once said to me that when buying a mouthpiece always try out as many as possible, and the further they are out of your comfort zone they are the better, it means you can develop as a player, you should spend on a mouthpiece approximately 10 percent of what you did on the sax.

as for the tuning of the sax Im afraid you have to take my word for it that the bottom octave was out of tune with the upper octave. You'll have to enquire at Hanson's about what they did to get it to a reasonable standard.

Linky Lee - by the list of saxes I see you need two alto saxes for two genres - classical and jazz - with my tenor I use a Lawton 7*B (Stainless Steel) for the jazz / blues / swing and a Selmer mouthpiece for the classical, that seems to do the job. From an outsider looking in you have a silver plate sax for the jazz and a Hanson for the classical - both different finishes - so in my opinion there must be a difference in sound. Unlacquered saxes are not suppressed by the lacquer, so have a much more 'raw' big sound, from my experience with silver saxes, I found them to have a bright empty tinny sound, something I didn't want, being predominantly a tenor player myself, I like something with a bit of oompf! Probably why I have a lacquered sax with a mouthpiece that can do it for me!

SaxTeacher

P.S. Who knows with the standard of the pupil in question, I may have the next Courney Pine on my hands!

 

[Linky Lee]

I don't 'need' two different saxes for classical and jazz. I like the versatility, the two are also interchangeable.

I prefer my silver plated one for jazz as it is mellower (more suitable for Johnny Hodges style playing). This does not mean a silver plate finish provides a mellower sound. All the 'hype' I've heard from silver plate says they are brighter in fact. And that is what your ears have led you to believe as well.

As the saxophones are different, the interior dimensions are going to be significantly different, and again so are most things as it's such an old instrument. I feel the bore size of the instrument will have a greater affect upon the sound than the finish. And the bore sizes are very different. A much as the two crooks wouldn't be interchangeable.
I can play jazz perfectly fine with my Ottolink on the Hanson (Or the Selmer for a purer sound), it brings more punch and clarity to the timbre, and would be better in an electric situation or music of a Charlie Parker style for example.

I only actually have the other saxophone as it was given to me and is so historical and sentimental (as it was my first saxophone). I feel than Hanson is probably a better saxophone. More variation of tone, better keywork and stronger build. Though I naturally turn to the charm of the Martin.

I feel your advice was well given and I'm glad the problems were sorted out quickly and effectively.
I think the test for Hanson saxophones will be the test of time.

There is no doubt they are good instruments, and the company is still climbing. I do share some of the doubts you have.
I have found the lacquer/plating wear to wear much faster than anticipated.

I think it is very important to select a 'good' or should I say 'appropriate' saxophone from the outset. Many student instruments will hinder and saxophones can easily outlive their owners. This means a good saxophone should be an investment for life.
I have no reason to doubt my Hanson will serve me my entire life (unless some nasty accident occurs).

I think for the money being paid, the Hanson stands up with instruments of a much higher price tag and therefore is a 'good' investment as it will provide longer service and of a higher quality than the equivalent Selmer or Yamaha for the same price, even if they are thought of as a 'safer option' and therefore preferable.

I'm sure she will get great enjoyment from playing her saxophone, and a nice saxophone helps keep that enthusiasm and desire to play.

 

[Pete Thomas]

SaxTeacher wrote:
However, when the sax arrived I did keep an open mind. The sax has a vintage finish, and in my experience, these finishes can sometimes do more harm then good, restricting the sound of the sax by choking it with the finish paint / lacquer / whatever you would like to call it.

I believe that the finish has no effect on the sound at all. However there is no scientific method of proving one way or the other so it's all up to what you want to think, however the scientific theory behind the acoustics of the saxophone does tend to favour the idea that the finish (and indeed the material) makes no difference to the sound.

The saxophone is NOT like a violin or guitar which relies on the resonance of the body of the instrument. The important criteria are the internal dimensions.

BTW

SaxTeacher wrote:
I am the offending sax teacher in question about which this topic focuses on.

I don't think anyone considers you to be offending. Many thanks for joining the discussion.

 

[Linky Lee]

I meant to say; Welcome to the forums! I guess your first experiences have been pretty 'full on' since the thread was so developed.

Most threads don't move quite so fast or all over the place.

 

[Bobby G]

Indeed, welcome and thanks for your input SaxTeacher. Not being very experienced (3 years self-taught) I have an open mind about whether finishes, lack'o'lacquer etc have much bearing on the sound, although I do know my YAS-62 and Dolnet silver-plated alto sound quite different when using the same mpc/reed setup. Putting the horns side by side you can see the dimensions are different which I suppose has an effect on the sound, but couldn't tone-hole placement have an effect on sound too?

Cheers, Bob

 

[peter_fitton]

Pete Thomas wrote:

The saxophone is NOT like a violin or guitar which relies on the resonance of the body of the instrument. The important criteria are the internal dimensions.

Um...perhaps this is a naive and stupid question, but considering the saxophone has been around for about 160 years now, shouldn't there be some kind of "industry standard" regarding the bore size and internal dimensions required in order to acheive accurate intonation?

Seems simple to me, but no doubt I'm missing something :S

Peter

 

[old_git]

Great to hear both sides of the story and welcome aboard from a sax newby.
As an ex HiFi freak, jazz trombonist, folkie and current flute and sax attempted player, must agree with your finish affects sound belief.
BTW As the body is silver plated and the key-work is 24 karat gold plated, if anyone else plays it, I get to keep their nail scrapings. 😛

postscript:-Just in case I forget, Happy Christmas.

 

[Pete Thomas]

You all might find this thread a useful read, especially the contribution from kymarto.

 

[Linky Lee]

about standards, there are mathmatical systems that tell you where each tone hole should be placed and radius of the instrument etc.

really very complicated things.

A simpler version is guitars. You have different scale lengths.
This means the frets can be placed closer together and it will still play in tune. The scale length is altered by the bridge placement and the width between the frets.

I have built a guitar so I had to make sure I placed the bridge in the correct place for the scale length I made the neck, if I didn't none of it would play in tune, ever. Arghh! It would be like moving all the tone holes down 1/10 of the distance between them. Madness!

 

[philthd]

and we probably need yet another discussion about temprament here.

 

[frankb]

Hi Sax Teacher,

Welcome to the forum, from a complete newbie! It's been an interesting thread and it's great that we got to hear it from all the different perspectives.

Thanks for contributing and I hope you'll stick around to add your views to other discussions.

Best regards,

Frank

 

[Pete Thomas]

Peter Fitton wrote:

Pete Thomas wrote:

The saxophone is NOT like a violin or guitar which relies on the resonance of the body of the instrument. The important criteria are the internal dimensions.

Um...perhaps this is a naive and stupid question, but considering the saxophone has been around for about 160 years now, shouldn't there be some kind of "industry standard" regarding the bore size and internal dimensions required in order to acheive accurate intonation?

Then all saxophones would probably sound the same. A manufacturer can vary the dimensions and shape of the bore to suit their design and acoustic concept. They would then have to calculate or work out the tonehole position to suit thaose particular dimensions.

Interestingly Buescher catalogues of the 20s pointed out that although their saxophones were available in different finishes, it had no effect on the sound.

These days manufacturers claim that it does. Science or marketing hype?

 

[spike]

A horses mouth comment in the same vein

When I had my custom neck built by Tommy Inderbinen, I had a short telephone conversation with him and asked him about finishes and their effect on the sound. His reply was that the finish has absolutely no effect whatsoever.

gruss - spike

 

[philthd]

i dont think any change you make to an instument has no effect

but im pretty convinced the effect of the finish is negligable

 

[a_professional_musician]

gone

 

[jambo]

If the pupil is happy with the sax and the problems have been fixed, there isn't any need to take it back.

You have to think 'Is the sax worth 600quid'. If it is, whats the point getting rid of it, only to get another pro sax for over 1000