Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[PiccoloPirate]

Forgot this.
The OP has skills, listened to him playing, and he should try what was presented.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Forgot this.
The OP has skills, listened to him playing, and he should try what was presented.

Well he hasn’t bitten, so maybe it doesn’t float his boat.
A good teacher will also present a description of how a walking bass is constructed.
You use the word “melodic” next to walking bass, I’ll use that next time I’m on the bandstand and see what comes back.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I wonder how much he knew about noodling with no prior study...

His point is… you need none.

 

[Digger2054]

Forgot this.
The OP has skills, listened to him playing, and he should try what was presented.

Thanks 👍

Well he hasn’t bitten, so maybe it doesn’t float his boat.
A good teacher will also present a description of how a walking bass is constructed.
You use the word “melodic” next to walking bass, I’ll use that next time I’m on the bandstand and see what comes back.

I'm fortunate to have a teacher, and have face 2 face lessons, as I know that's how I learn best, rather than online lessons.

There are many ways to skin a cat, I've had things explained several ways before it clicks, I tend stick with what my teacher explains, in an attempt to not get confused any further 🤣

 

[PiccoloPirate]

The OP is not the only player in the Galaxy, that might find this useful.
This 12 bar is most often used.
/C7/F7/C7/C7/
/F7/F7/C7/C7/
/G7/F7/C7/C7/

The reason it's just the arpeggios, used in each measure, quarter notes/tones in any order and any octave, is to assess what the student is thinking. No sample walking bass lines to influence their thoughts.
No instrument in hand.
It's not like Gradus ad Parnassum or Gedalge on the Fugue, where samples are necessary.
Just simple stuff to start, and then the teacher knows how to move forward.
If you're stuck in the mud, this exercise can be useful.

 

[thomsax]

The OP is not the only player in the Galaxy, that might find this useful.
This 12 bar is most often used.
/C7/F7/C7/C7/
/F7/F7/C7/C7/
/G7/F7/C7/C7/

The reason it's just the arpeggios, used in each measure, quarter notes/tones in any order and any octave, is to assess what the student is thinking. No sample walking bass lines to influence their thoughts.
No instrument in hand.
It's not like Gradus ad Parnassum or Gedalge on the Fugue, where samples are necessary.
Just simple stuff to start, and then the teacher knows how to move forward.
If you're stuck in the mud, this exercise can be useful.

To make it even easier leave out the quick four (second bar). Instead of F7 you got C7.

 

[GuyBoden]

Over 50 years, I listened to a lot of the Jazz I liked, sang short phrases from the recordings and then played them on my instrument repeatedly until I knew them unconsciously.

A bit of theory helped, but I slowly began to hear what chords and phrases sounded good together. Hearing phrases and where they fit is where improvisation very, very, very slowly clicked for me.

 

[Digger2054]

The recent post by @atwl77 reminded me about this thread so thought I'd update here.

In answer to my question does it eventually click? Yes... But then it's like opening Pandora's box and off you go down another avenue.

I've been working through Autumn leaves, starting with just the chord tones, literally playing up and down each chord, then introducing voice leading. This inevitably becomes predictable.

I've since been introduced to diminished chords, somewhat of a revelation, perhaps it was the months of playing chord tones, but these really perked me up.

Theory is not my strong point, it can take a long while for it to sink in, however my teacher is patient and will explain it repeatedly, importantly what to learn, how to learn it and why, and when to use it.

My teacher is happy with my progress, I'm enjoying learning. I'm told I am 'improvising', to me I'm essentially embellishing & elaborating the melody... I'm now not satisfied as it still sounds like Autumn leaves, so am working on that.

My teacher often uses the analogy of a child playing with a box of coloured building blocks, there's loads of ways to assemble them, improvising is similar.

I've still a long way to go, but instead of feeling like I'm in well above my head I'm now starting to look at, and even get excited about what else I can learn and incorporate.

I might pluck up the courage to do a recording.

 

[Pete Effamy]

to me I'm essentially embellishing & elaborating the melody...

“First I plays the melody, then the melody around the melody, and then I routines”.

Louis Armstrong.

 

[Ballymenaboy]

Sometimes just playing what you feel works well.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I’m going to say something controversial now, but I think chords are the enemy of learning to improvise. People worry so much about sticking to the chords, it can take years or even seem unattainable to be able to get to at least feel you have achieved some meaningful level.

What happens is people spend so long working on Autumn Leaves (or worse: Giant Steps) before they even think about any kind of melodic approach.

Best thing is to start with simple funk, rock, modal or freeform and just have fun playing randomly and listening to what you play. Starting out doing jazz, especially old school bebop or hard bop style, is a huge pedagogical or auto didactic mistake.

I promise my next post will balance it up by having shorter words.

 

[Pete Thomas]

****

 

[Digger2054]

I’m going to say something controversial now, but I think chords are the enemy of learning to improvise

To be fair my teacher asked me which way I wanted to down the improvisation route in my head 'chords' was what I wanted to go. I'm a sucker for punishment.

I do agree with you, you're entirely correct 👍 it's taken months of work to feel like I've progressed. Still a long way to go though.

I've been given some tips to work on rhythm, playing a blues scale over a backing, starting with 1 note and adding more with time, mostly so I have to work on my rhythm.

The important thing is I'm enjoying it, after like you say doubting myself and wondering if it was ever within my reach.

 

[hedgehog]

Over on Taming The Saxophone you can find the book Improvising for Beginners. Since @Pete Thomas wrote it, it's no surprise it follows the approach he outlines above. There are playalongs to go with it and some technical ideas. But not too much technical mater. My take: play what you can and what you like to hear. There's an overlap and that book helped me (re)find that overlap after some years away from the horn.

 

[skeller047]

I’m going to say something controversial now, but I think chords are the enemy of learning to improvise. People worry so much about sticking to the chords, it can take years or even seem unattainable to be able to get to at least feel you have achieved some meaningful level.

What happens is people spend so long working on Autumn Leaves (or worse: Giant Steps) before they even think about any kind of melodic approach.

Best thing is to start with simple funk, rock, modal or freeform and just have fun playing randomly and listening to what you play. Starting out doing jazz, especially old school bebop or hard bop style, is a huge pedagogical or auto didactic mistake.

I promise my next post will balance it up by having shorter words.

Thinking about chords is thinking vertically. Great if you are playing piano, maybe not so much if you are playing an instrument which only plays single notes.

Thinking melodically is thinking horizontally. Like drawing a line that goes from one point to another - the line may curve and squiggle but it has a start and an end.

Both approaches are valid, but the linear mode works better for saxophone playing. We only have arpeggios for implying vertical harmony, which can end up sounding mechanical - but a melody is like a pretty girl. (To reverse a lyric…)

 

[cappers]

Caveat - I'm a complete novice, six lessons to date but doing very well according to my teacher.

The thought of chords and playing with / over them is incomprehensible at the moment although I'm looking at triads and get the basics (thank you TTS!) but it seems so technical and academic. I'm learning to play for fun in my retirement and want to sound reasonable eventually.

After my exercises (scales, long tones, articulation, playing the learning book tunes etc) I just noodle, either to music tracks or just solo. I make mistakes but don't care as I'm beginning to learn what is where and how it sounds as it were. Usually just a few different notes but trying to play along with the rhythm and melody, toot-toot-toot-dooo-da-da-dee-doot kind of thing.

I can improvise to most music in my head, humming and whistling and seem to able to follow it and generally anticipate the direction of the melody and add my bits. But I don't think about it, it just happens. If I think about what I'm doing it goes out the window. I hope that one day what's in my head will transfer to my fingers.

I know this is a newbie's perspective but I believe that both approaches - academic or ad hoc - are ok but one may suit more than the other.

Rebuttals and comments welcome!

 

[skeller047]

Noodling is important. Scales, arpeggios, etudes are just there to increase your familiarity with the instrument, though it is important to try to play them musically.

If you noodle something you like, try to remember it. Academics call this “vocabulary building”, but I love ramen❤️❤️❤️

 

[BigMartin]

I do agree with you, you're entirely correct 👍 it's taken months of work to feel like I've progressed. Still a long way to go though.

Months? Nothing! 15 years in, I occasionally play something I quite like. There is always a long way to go, no matter who you are.

The important thing is I'm enjoying it, after like you say doubting myself and wondering if it was ever within my reach.

And that's why we do it, right? A thousand little triumphs along the way.

 

[wakyct]

but I think chords are the enemy of learning to improvise

Speaking as a beginner who's taking an ear training class right now I think part of the issue might be that most beginners have very underdeveloped listening skills. Can they distinguish major, minor and diminished chords? Can they hear a flat 9 or a sharp 5? Can they hear a chord progression? If not when they try to play through bebop changes it's a mechanical exercise and they're not making the aural connections in their brain that would make everything make a lot more sense.

 

[CliveMA]

just have fun playing randomly and listening to what you play.

Rather than purely random, I prefer to try to create a feeling: sadness, joy, romance, wanting-to-dance or reflecting a particular song's mood as inspiration.