Playing the saxophone How do you justify jazz?

[Pete Effamy]

No it’s definitely rubbish.

Same as those boxes.

 

[Woodpad]

Our aesthetic sense is strongly dependent on prime numbers. If you make music using large prime numbers in the relations between frequencies it isn't mainstream but becomes an acquired taste. You can see a prime number shift in a lot of different art forms. In most cases to higher primes in some cases to lower.

 

[mrblackbat]

No you have to justify the art is worthy of the funding. Well that seemed to be the case when when I was trying. It also applied in academic research funding for composing.

I’m not sure it’s the art that requires the justification there, though, more the value that the funding brings. And the same applies in any industry: it the database product I sell is fantastic, but it has a cost and that cost needs to be evaluated against the revenue it will generate compared to other, lesser products.

From the perspective of an arts council (and I submitted stuff many moons ago after graduating), for example, they need to consider things like community good/involvement, footfall, media coverage, reputational sentiment (shock value can increase media coverage and footfall but at a cost of reputation) and so on.

 

[LostCircuits]

Art doesn’t ever need justifying. But you’re allowed to say you think it’s crap

Didn't Joseph Beuys have a turd in a bathtub? It was crap, I don't think anyone can argue that.
But put it in a tub and exhibit it and it becomes art.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Didn't Joseph Beuys have a turd in a bathtub? It was crap, I don't think anyone can argue that.
But put it in a tub and exhibit it and it becomes art.

Why? It’s just BS. Perspective. You can crap in your own bathtub and lie back and marvel at the “art” you just created, you don’t have to put it into a gallery and con everyone.

Are random notes played in a garden exactly that, but a piece of music in a concert hall?

 

[Targa]

Why? It’s just BS. Perspective. You can crap in your own bathtub and lie back and marvel at the “art” you just created, you don’t have to put it into a gallery and con everyone.

Are random notes played in a garden exactly that, but a piece of music in a concert hall?

I wondered what you humans did in there.
Personally when I perform in the litter tray I then skilfully arrange the cat lit into artistic ‘close encounters of the third kind’ structures.

 

[LostCircuits]

Why? It’s just BS. Perspective. You can crap in your own bathtub and lie back and marvel at the “art” you just created, you don’t have to put it into a gallery and con everyone.

Are random notes played in a garden exactly that, but a piece of music in a concert hall?

I guess you don't know Joseph Beuys.
And maybe we are lucky he did not attempt to play music.

 

[Grumps]

Not sure what you’re getting at. Yoko has plenty of fans born before ‘64. Elvis Costello, for example. Not everyone is stuck in that weird blaming her for the Beatles breakup thing, if that’s what you mean.

So that's a yes then?

 

[JayeNM]

There has been a dispute over refuse collection in Birmingham, UK that has been going on for about 13 months now, with quite a mountain of refuse on the streets.
It has been debated, discussed, on TV… it must be art.

Jump on the opportunity !

You will never have to play horn for money....again !!!!!!!

 

[JayeNM]

c) could be rephrased as by virtue of the fact that if someone punches you in the face actually results in a court case with a discussion as to your guilt is that not justification for the assault itself.

...I mean again, it depends how much you care to give consideration to it....

....it could be, if you are closed-minded and really have not an inkling of the creative process, I suppose.....but I doubt most people would consider an unmade bed in an art gallery, or a painting of an unopened can of soup, the equivalent to getting punched in the face....

People love sh#tting on visual artists, and quite honestly narrow-minded folks can pretty much target any art which is abstract and say "that's just garbage"....just like people can target , say, free jazz and say "that's just garbage, they are just screwing around"....

Yet if, say, you saw a free jazz show or listened to a free jazz song, and thought it was just *******...and had the opportunity to engage the musician in a convo and ask what he/she was doing there....you would give them the opportunity to reply, right ? Or perhaps engage in a convo with a fan of theirs who likes the stuff and might wanna explain to you why it has some merit.

And that reply/those convos might actually give one pause for at least a bit of consideration....and perspective.

Yet you would not give such consideration to the visual art piece.

So....again, one may be steeped in Music thus allow greater license, which you may not granting to other artistic arenas.

Just something to consider....

 

[Pete Effamy]

You will never have to play horn for money....again !!!!!!!

That’s the biggest con of it all; and it is a con.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It could be if you are closed-minded and really have not an inkling of the creative process....

....I suppose.....

That’s a bit strong seeing as you’re basically allowing an “anything goes” approach.

For me, some of the extremes we’ve mentioned I’d call lazy, and taking people for a ride.

 

[JayeNM]

I don't remember saying that. I was in Joe's band because (I think) I was recommended by someone, so it may be the person who recommended my knew that I could play blues and rock and roll as well as a bit of jazz.

You did write it somewhere, either here or on the Evil Forum. It didn't have to do with you being a Jive player...it had to do with the fact that you were not overplaying, and had a better gist of the vibe of the music.

It was either here, or on another timeline.....

 

[JayeNM]

That’s the biggest con of it all; and it is a con.

Here:

An installation artists jumps on that, does something to those heaps of trash to create a statement along the lines of "look where humanity (or current forms of governance, or whatever) has taken us.
Now all of a sudden, trash may have a new message...It's not (potentially) a con if the artist's hand takes part in it, somehow.

That’s a bit strong seeing as you’re basically allowing an “anything goes” approach.

For me, some of the extremes we’ve mentioned I’d call lazy, and taking people for a ride.

I was being facetious...it is absurd to equate an art piece in a gallery, or a public space, with getting punched in the face...

In the absolute worst case scenario, indeed, the viewer is being "had" (i.e. the artist had zero intent to communicate anything...they just needed to fill a corner of the gallery so they threw something there).
Harm is quite limited.

Indeed some artists are not above that. But I would not generalize that the majority of such pieces are that, and dismiss them outright, is all.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Here:

An installation artists jumps on that, does something to those heaps of trash to create a statement along the lines of "look where humanity (or current forms of governance, or whatever) has taken us.
Now all of a sudden, trash may have a new message...

I was being facetious...it is absurd to equate an art piece in a gallery, or a public space, with getting punched in the face...

Yet, someone will dish that up as an installation if they haven’t already - and I’d be surprised if they haven’t.

 

[Pete Effamy]

An installation artists jumps on that, does something to those heaps of trash to create a statement along the lines of "look where humanity (or current forms of governance, or whatever) has taken us.
Now all of a sudden, trash may have a new message.

Yeah…
It’s what everyone would think standing in front of it in the street. Everyone’s an artist.

 

[JayeNM]

Yeah…
It’s what everyone would think standing in front of it in the street. Everyone’s an artist.

Quite possibly, right ? So it conveys a message all by itself already.

But perhaps a visual artist can see an avenue in things we just consider mundane or not worthy of any attention at all.

I am not saying we need to grant that suspension of immediate skepticism to everything, we were talking art in galleries here....so bringing in face-punching and piles of trash is a bit....digressive to the conversation, methinks....I mean it is inserting an absurdity in place of the 'piece' itself, and equating the two.

My point is "don't necessarily equate the two"....just like you would not equate an outside jazz song with "worthless" or 'pointless', while many others would...

 

[Pete Effamy]

I am not saying we need to grant that suspension of immediate skepticism to everything, we were talking art in galleries here....so bringing in face-punching and piles of trash is a bit....manipulative to the conversation, methinks...

So now the “nothing off-limits” thing doesn’t apply? Sounds like we have found a line that shouldn’t be crossed after all. Now we just need to set out the rules / expectations

 

[JayeNM]

So now the “nothing off-limits” thing doesn’t apply? Sounds like we have found a line that shouldn’t be crossed after all. Now we just need to set out the rules / expectations

Again, my reply to the face-punching was facetious...The piles of trash in themselves are probably of no artistic value without an artist somehow intervening in some way to make it one...

I am not sure what you are getting at, honestly (?)

We were discussing Jazz...then Art installations.

My comments were only addressing the fact (aptly displayed in this thread at the moment) that perhaps consideration can be given to things in the visual arts world which we dismiss as having zero value.....

....in the same way a layman music listener might dismiss an Ornette recording as cacophonous assault on the ears which is just "pulling a big con on all of us"....

A "justification" is not really "needed" in either music nor art, when you get down to it.

But in many instances, an "explanation as to the intent" of either, probably exists and MIGHT make one take pause and re-assess in order to consider or understand.

The "Drawing a line" thing...I am not sure why that even comes into it (?)

 

[Targa]

...I mean again, it depends how much you care to give consideration to it....

....it could be, if you are closed-minded and really have not an inkling of the creative process, I suppose.....but I doubt most people would consider an unmade bed in an art gallery, or a painting of an unopened can of soup, the equivalent to getting punched in the face....

People love sh#tting on visual artists, and quite honestly narrow-minded folks can pretty much target any art which is abstract and say "that's just garbage"....just like people can target , say, free jazz and say "that's just garbage, they are just screwing around"....

Yet if, say, you saw a free jazz show or listened to a free jazz song, and thought it was just *******...and had the opportunity to engage the musician in a convo and ask what he/she was doing there....you would give them the opportunity to reply, right ? Or perhaps engage in a convo with a fan of theirs who likes the stuff and might wanna explain to you why it has some merit.

And that reply/those convos might actually give one pause for at least a bit of consideration....and perspective.

Yet you would not give such consideration to the visual art piece.

So....again, one may be steeped in Music thus allow greater license, which you may not granting to other artistic arenas.

Just something to consider....

Well I didn’t think anyone would take ‘a punch in the face’ comparison as anything but facetious.
Rest assured I have been to more art galleries showing the widest variety of work than, as the saying goes, you’ve had hot dinners.
I know enough that if I say that I don’t like or even dislike a work and someone wants to say it is because I don’t understand it within five minutes I can make them cry.