Playing the saxophone How do you justify jazz?

[mizmar]

Here in Switzerland, we are lucky. We can see and hear the truth of wrong from right. We have the Montreux Jazz Festival. Whoever plays within that institution is playing jazz. By definition. And anyone wearing a MJ tee is justifying jazz. Merci.

It's true. I was in Geneva for a while and went to the festival.
You forgot to mention the mixed showers in the camping site.

 

[Taragot]

I did not read through the whole thread, but find the question personally very interesting. Sorry, if my answer is off or covered earlier.
I'm a highschool teacher (it's called Gymnasium here) for music and do a lot of things in my lessons (singing, clapping, dancing, learning to read music etc.). Part of the job of course is also getting the pupils to know some masterpieces of music and hopefully evoke some kind of interest, love for this music and make their cultural life a bit richer and their horizon wider.
Most of the genres and pieces mentioned in the curriculum are western classical music, some jazz and blues, a bit of pop and rock, a tiny bit non western music. Compared to the streaming charts, this covers about 5% - 10% of the total amout, people in general are listening to.
It would be great, if I had a semi convincing answer, why the pupils should exclusively listen to Bach, Beethoven, Birthwistle, Coltrane, Davis, Shankar etc.) I highly admire all of these musicians and their work and would love to to share my love with my pupils. But I don't feel this is per se 'better' music than Dream Theatre, Bruno Mars, Kendrick Lamar etc. etc..
In my jazz lessons we sing a lot of standards. I bring my sax and play over some backings. If we listen to some tracks, I choose recordings I think they can perhaps connect to. If it's a YT-video, it's important if it feels somehow alive and fresh. Singers are good. If the the band wears "jazzy" hats, it's sometimes more important than if they are great players.
Historical important recordings with bad sound quality and old men are somehow not convincing to them, so I leave them away.
If pupils bring tracks from Laufey or Lady Gaga and ask if that's jazz, that's a great sign. If five pupils come with me to listen an hour to the local jam session at the jazz club, that's unbelievable.
So I don't have a real objective justification for introducing pupils to jazz (and other genres they don't listen to) - only personal: I think there's a lot of great and inspiring music in jazz and interacting spontanously as a collective is a great way to communicate. General knowledge of some masterpieces - not so much.

 

[Targa]

No, there’s nothing quite like it. Fraudulent really. I and many others walked through the “installation “ and were reprimanded by it:

“Please step away from the exhibit sir”
“Wat exhibit?”
“the one that you’re standing in sir”
“Eh ? These boxes ?”
“Yes sir”
“ that’s not an exhibit / installation / art, it’s a few cardboard boxes. I get some every week with my Amazon deliveries “
- guard gives look that says I’ll shoot you in a minute…”

That’s like the time I walked through the door of the Tate and noticed my shoelace was undone so I bent down and put my foot on a brick to be greeted by a shout of ‘get your foot of the … err….bricks’. Apparently they were an ‘installation’.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That’s like the time I walked through the door of the Tate and noticed my shoelace was undone so I bent down and put my foot on a brick to be greeted by a shout of ‘get your foot of the … err….bricks’. Apparently they were an ‘installation’.

Yeah. I have to say that it does anger and insult me. Tracey Emmin’s “unmade bed” complete with knickers is (and probably was) exactly that. It isn’t a piece of art, and the whole “yes but I thought of it (first) and so that makes it art ; doesn’t impress me.

 

[mizmar]

I like stuff like Tracey's bed, the Bricks, John Cage's silence...

They confirm my point above

The point is, "jazz", like "classical",etc. Is a tradition that develops through time. If the community (punters, musicians, writers, academics, historians) lump stuff in there, it's in... With some arguments around the edges

By pointing to the edges, that are normally taken for granted, and having us think about them. Lots of music, painting, theater etc. reflects on something or other in society to have us think about that thing. Popular stuff is like; nice scenery, love, heart break, war, prize cows, prize girlfriends and such. Why not reflect on "what is" music, painting, theater etc. as well? Isn't that what this thread is partially about?

They're not for every day consumption, to have in the best room or such. They're still part of the overall institution; an important part.

 

[JayeNM]

I disagree sightly. Producers I've worked for on rock/blues sessions have said that many session players haver a problem with playing other genres. I've known so many jazz players who think dismiss blues as easy, and yet without being able to play blues convincingly. They get the harmony yet somehow miss out on the feel and intonation. Somehow unable to leave the jazz licks and patterns at home.

There IS always THAT. You mentioned here once that Joe Jackson chose you for Jumpin' JIve because you weren't deep-diving into 'serious' jazz licks and such, but rather staying more with the Jive genre, feel. (I paraphrase here, but I think that was your gist).

So, yeah, there is that danger. Jazzers can tend to do that. I once shared what a sax player I used to play with in San Fran told me, when he played blues and rock shows - "sometimes those bands tell me "hey, knock it off with the Coltrane sh#t".

I was speaking to it more from this perspective, however:

Jazz requires a player to be pretty honed in on a lotta stuff...ear training, theory, phrasing...a few examples.

So when they (we) have to decipher a tune for an upcoming performance, say given only a playlist and maybe a chord chart or even chord tabs....we can do a better job at hearing what's going on and getting the gist of a tune than musicians who are not half-decent jazz players.

Quick proof of this....the PLETHORA of chord tab sites and sources across the 'net where people have (ostensibly) decoded the chord changes from songs to which there are no (easily) available charts or publications.....

I hope nobody here has had to spend a whole lotta time using those chord tab sites as a resource (I have, yipes)...because really....90% of the efforts that get posted and (ostensibly) circulated...are so BAD, so incomplete...that besides maybe being useful for providing the ROOTS of each chord...they have little value at all.

So in this instance, a jazz guit or pianist, say, can do a transcription which is WAY more accurate than what a garage band guitarist (even a gigging one) came up with.

Example 2 - when I was in a funky rock band, again we had to source our music from original recordings or covers, mostly did it thru YT. A lot of times the material we chose, while GOOD songs, to me were only, say, 3/4-baked. They were catchy, people recognized them....but we wanted to do more than just a copy of the original....a lot of them had more potential to become (for fear of sounding hoity-toidy) better or more interesting than the original.

Yet when I would look up covers of such tunes on YT, I would say...70% of the covers I came across, basically displayed the band (at best) performing the song true or near-true to the original...or...doing a really rudimentary interpretation and being perfectly ok with that. Yet pop songs can be mined for more than that, IMHO. And players with some jazz sensibilities seem to be able to do that...again, apologies for my bluntness...'better'.

So I meant it more in that sense. I do agree, sometimes jazzers do try to shoehorn their style into a genre which isn't calling for it, and sometimes they ignore other aspects such as rhythm or general feel.

 

[LostCircuits]

Jazzers can tend to do that. I once shared what a sax player I used to play with in San Fran told me, when he played blues and rock shows - "sometimes those bands tell me "hey, knock it off with the Coltrane sh#t".

I do agree, sometimes jazzers do try to shoehorn their style into a genre which isn't calling for it, and sometimes they ignore other aspects such as rhythm or general feel.

Isn't that more of a general issue, not just jazzers and not just sax players?

I often want to say "hey knock if off with that altissimo sh*t" or "hey, it would be interesting to hear you play a solo instead of doing the same noodle on just another fret"

Maybe there is a preponderance for certain people to venture into jazz because there they can hide their lack of musical understanding / ear better but I want to say that you can find this anywhere. Ok, arguably, in blues bands this kind of behavior may result in a quicker demise because of lack of following/audience while in jazz, there is no real audience and following to begin with...

 

[JayeNM]

I’m always a bit mystified by people talking about ‘understanding’ music. Especially the idea that you can’t like it unless you understand it. I don’t really know what they mean.

In its worst iteration, it is a sorta 'gatekeeper' thing. Jazzers can be quite guilty of this.

The epitome of that example is that YT vid on Giant Steps...now mind you this is one which TONS of jazz players have circulated and loved, there are threads on musician chat boards about it, lauding it.
The general jazzer consensus/position is "THERE you go, you SEE NOW ? This is why you should love it and see how BRILLIANT IT IS. We just explained it to you !"

I am of two minds:

1) if a tune doesn't MOVE you, then it doesn't move you. Regardless of how brilliant the composition or execution may be. So to have someone pontificating that "you don't love it because you don't understand it" is a bit.....much. Let folks be moved by what they are moved by.

2) the counterargument of this is...what may seem completely baffling or even worth just dismissing entirely...can be at least made understandable and perhaps appreciated on some level WITH an explanation or CONTEXT provided.
*if it is done on ...let;s call it..."layman's terms". If what "needs" to be done to understand the EXPLANATION is an understanding of the vocabulary of say, music, or art, etc...then that is deep-diving and requires the viewer/listener to actually understand and familiarize themselves with things that are very much within the particular vocation/art form.

So for example....since people brough up art installations.....

Yoko Ono's art can initially seem like garbage, literally pedestrian and pointless, like someone actually playing a joke on you.... if one doesn't understand the common themes that run through her ouvre. In a good exhibit, hopefully this is introduced at the start of the gallery walk, Armed with that context, one views the pieces differently.

Joseph Beuys is another example, same thing....can seem random, pointless, and literally disrespectful to the viewer...unless you know a bit of history about the artist, then it sorta becomes at least interesting and at most, compelling and challenging.

But again, that prologue/explanation should itself be something pretty easy to grasp for a viewer.

Likewise Jazz 'explanations'....if the roadmap goes beyond brief or simple...then it can become pontificating.

 

[Grumps]

I suppose then Yoko is a lot like jazz.
Difficult to interpret and not well liked.

 

[JayeNM]

Isn't that more of a general issue, not just jazzers and not just sax players?

I often want to say "hey knock if off with that altissimo sh*t" or "hey, it would be interesting to hear you play a solo instead of doing the same noodle on just another fret"

I think the 'problem' this guy was encountering was just that liked to spread out when he soloed, and Trane was his dude. But in other genres, it just didn't result in what the band wanted. I think that is a bit different than feeling the player plays too much altissimo or someone's solos are superficial noodles.

It is more, as Pete noted, in concentrating on your usual notespray, even if brilliant notespray, you were missing the 'groove' or feel of the song.
So in other genres, attempting a jazz solo can sometimes end up being 'overplaying'....if that makes sense ?

 

[JayeNM]

I suppose then Yoko is a lot like jazz.
Difficult to interpret and not well liked.

yes, in a way..."if not explained to you"....

...and that is where it becomes inaccessible to a lotta folks....they don't want a road map, they just wanna be entertained....

(but not all Jazz is inaccessible....just like not all visual artists are)

 

[Pete Thomas]

I suppose then Yoko is a lot like jazz.
Difficult to interpret and not well liked.

And maybe hard to justify?

 

[Targa]

I like stuff like Tracey's bed, the Bricks, John Cage's silence...

They confirm my point above

By pointing to the edges, that are normally taken for granted, and having us think about them. Lots of music, painting, theater etc. reflects on something or other in society to have us think about that thing. Popular stuff is like; nice scenery, love, heart break, war, prize cows, prize girlfriends and such. Why not reflect on "what is" music, painting, theater etc. as well? Isn't that what this thread is partially about?

They're not for every day consumption, to have in the best room or such. They're still part of the overall institution; an important part.

Did you listen to 4’33 all the way through?
If not you can’t really have appreciated it.
I’ve seen and heard a lot of ‘the edges’ through visiting galleries and concerts and a lot of education from the TV so I believe I have a fair, though necessarily subjective, appreciation of art in all its forms and what is crap.

 

[JayeNM]

I like stuff like Tracey's bed, the Bricks, John Cage's silence...

They confirm my point above

By pointing to the edges, that are normally taken for granted, and having us think about them. Lots of music, painting, theater etc. reflects on something or other in society to have us think about that thing. Popular stuff is like; nice scenery, love, heart break, war, prize cows, prize girlfriends and such. Why not reflect on "what is" music, painting, theater etc. as well? Isn't that what this thread is partially about?

They're not for every day consumption, to have in the best room or such. They're still part of the overall institution; an important part.

"Is there Beauty or Richness in the common...the banal.... ?"

VERY MUCH a modern, post-modernst/contemporary art theme

 

[mizmar]

"Is there Beauty in the common...the banal.... ?"

VERY MUCH a modern, post-modernst/contemporary art theme

There's certainly banality in the beautiful - very much a common thread in many art forms 😀

 

[mizmar]

Did you listen to 4’33 all the way through?
If not you can’t really have appreciated it.

Says who?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Did you listen to 4’33 all the way through?

Not only that but I slowed it down and transcribed it

 

[mizmar]

There's certainly banality in the beautiful - very much a common thread in many art forms 😀

I was being a bit tong in cheek;
But, ya know, sometimes I can get a bit fed up with easily digestible "great" music and just want something a bit spicy, something with a kick to it....
... Other times, yeah, great; out on a familiar album, have a beer, kick back.

Not all life is navigated at just one speed.

 

[Zasterz]

I suppose then Yoko is a lot like jazz.
Difficult to interpret and not well liked.

She’s sold millions of records and has 650k Instagram followers, not to mention being cited as an inspiration by many artists. I would like to be that “not well-liked.”

 

[Pete Effamy]

Not only that but I slowed it down and transcribed it

Too hard for me so gave it to somebody else to do for me.