Playing the saxophone How do you justify jazz?

[Targa]

Yeah. I have to say that it does anger and insult me. Tracey Emmin’s “unmade bed” complete with knickers is (and probably was) exactly that. It isn’t a piece of art, and the whole “yes but I thought of it (first) and so that makes it art ; doesn’t impress me.

The knickers were probably the pleasantest of the contents. I liked it when two Chinese used it as a trampoline and when arrested said that it was performance art. There was also her tent with the names of ‘everyone I’ve slept with’ written on it. People she knew of both sexes were seen coming out of it saying ‘thank God for that, I wasn’t that pissed after all’.

All the ‘I’m an artist so it is art’ derives from Duchamp’s Fountain.
I don’t know if it is true or the story has developed about its origin.

He was asked if he wanted to place a work in a gallery and asked who else was exhibiting and was told anyone could enter the exhibition for a fee of five francs.
So he turned up with a urinal and said if for five francs anyone is an artist then for five francs anything is art.

 

[LostCircuits]

in concentrating on your usual notespray, even if brilliant notespray,

But that's the poodle's core, they all think they are brilliant!

A friend of mine once put it like this: He thinks he's XL but he's only M

 

[Pete Thomas]

Art needs justifying?

This is a good question and got me thinking more, as I wandered around Sainsbury's looking for my wife. Anyone who has ever applied for an Arts Council Grant or similar will know that indeed art does sometimes need justifying, unless of course it is either popular enough for you to make a living from it or else it is a hobby - and I do not ever look down on amateurs or hobbyists, in the world of music amateurs are amongst some of the very best IMO.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The knickers were probably the pleasantest of the contents. I liked it when two Chinese used it as a trampoline and when arrested said that it was performance art. There was also her tent with the names of ‘everyone I’ve slept with’ written on it. People she knew of both sexes were seen coming out of it saying ‘thank God for that, I wasn’t that pissed after all’.

All the ‘I’m an artist so it is art’ derives from Duchamp’s Fountain.
I don’t know if it is true or the story has developed about its origin.

He was asked if he wanted to place a work in a gallery and asked who else was exhibiting and was told anyone could enter the exhibition for a fee of five francs.
So he turned up with a urinal and said if for five francs anyone is an artist then for five francs anything is art.

Yes, interesting. I am of a mind that an exhibition etc should be of a standard that , as a punter, is beyond me.
Otherwise, you can include cowboy builders and justify their work to the building inspector or I could set up shop as a barista and serve coffee made with a bit of mud. Not coffee ? I shouldn’t have to justify it.

And, for the argument that someone somewhere will love it - well, some people love a lot of stuff that is way off-piste and not lawful.

That line needs to be drawn somewhere.

 

[JayeNM]

I was being a bit tong in cheek;

OUCH

 

[JayeNM]

....That line needs to be drawn somewhere.

a) why ?

b) I think the line is more blurred for visual art than music, perhaps...although John Cage has occupied that border....

c) by virtue of the fact that such installations actually resulted in discussions occurring about such installations, the role of art, the definition of art, and the point of such....
....is that not ...
..justification...enough ...
....for the installation/piece itself ?


(admission - c) was a common art professor reply in art college back in the day....)

 

[Pete Thomas]

You mentioned here once that Joe Jackson chose you for Jumpin' JIve because you weren't deep-diving into 'serious' jazz licks and such, but rather staying more with the Jive genre, feel. (I paraphrase here, but I think that was your gist).

I don't remember saying that. I was in Joe's band because (I think) I was recommended by someone, so it may be the person who recommended my knew that I could play blues and rock and roll as well as a bit of jazz. By that time though I was a reasonably established session player but wasn't particularly into jump jive as it wasn't really a popular genre at that time until Joe made it so with the album and tours. I do remember though (with my false modesty hat removed), that Fats Domino said something along those lines, ie there were some great players around but they were into showing off their jazz licks on his show and it wasn't really appropriate.

 

[Pete Effamy]

a) why ?

b) I think the line is more blurred for visual art than music, perhaps...although John Cage has occupied that border....

c) by virtue of the fact that such installations actually resulted in discussions occurring about such installations, the role of art, the definition of art, and the point of such....
....is that not ...
..justification...enough ...
....for the installation/piece itself ?


(admission - c) was a common art professor reply in art college back in the day....)

Because of examples like the ones I gave, or in the end, someone takes the pee. Art shouldn’t be a free pass to do anything - otherwise we get into those silly pseudo philosophical debates where art is everything / anything.

As for John Cage 4’33”, he has been responsible for many terrible student skits .. in fact, it was his intention to show through this piece that anything constitutes music (the noises outside of the performance space and within / coughing / breathing).

 

[Targa]

a) why ?

b) I think the line is more blurred for visual art than music, perhaps...although John Cage has occupied that border....

c) by virtue of the fact that such installations actually resulted in discussions occurring about such installations, the role of art, the definition of art, and the point of such....
....is that not ...
..justification...enough ...
....for the installation/piece itself ?


(admission - c) was a common art professor reply in art college back in the day....)

c) could be rephrased as by virtue of the fact that if someone punches you in the face actually results in a court case with a discussion as to your guilt is that not justification for the assault itself.

 

[mark_addy]

This is a good question and got me thinking more, as I wandered around Sainsbury's looking for my wife.

Were they on special? I may be posting with an anonymous screen name but I am not going to risk any 'best before' jokes in case mine sees it with her third eye...

 

[Pete Effamy]

a) why ?

b) I think the line is more blurred for visual art than music, perhaps...although John Cage has occupied that border....

c) by virtue of the fact that such installations actually resulted in discussions occurring about such installations, the role of art, the definition of art, and the point of such....
....is that not ...
..justification...enough ...
....for the installation/piece itself ?


(admission - c) was a common art professor reply in art college back in the day....)

There has been a dispute over refuse collection in Birmingham, UK that has been going on for about 13 months now, with quite a mountain of refuse on the streets.
It has been debated, discussed, on TV… it must be art.

 

[mrblackbat]

Only the types that throw a few cardboard boxes on the floor of the Guggenheim and call it an installation.
In Jeremy Clarkson vernacular they need to be stood up against a ……..

I do recall a composition (incidentally that got top marks) during my degree which was a couple of pink noise samples slowly being moved out of phase; with a large document talking about the emotional impact of certain parts etc. Lot of crap, in my opinion; but that’s my opinion and art is subjective, the folk doing the grading liked it (or liked the essay).

Art doesn’t ever need justifying. But you’re allowed to say you think it’s crap.

 

[mrblackbat]

I don’t believe it does, it would be a sadder world without art IMO.

I agree. And although I saw your post about getting funding etc, that’s not the art that needs justifying, but the funds.

I don’t think art ever needs justifying. But you’re perfectly entitled to announce that any art you perceive is crap or nonsense or whatever. It’s all subjective after all.

 

[Targa]

There has been a dispute over refuse collection in Birmingham, UK that has been going on for about 13 months now, with quite a mountain of refuse on the streets.
It has been debated, discussed, on TV… it must be art.

No it’s definitely rubbish.

 

[Targa]

I do recall a composition (incidentally that got top marks) during my degree which was a couple of pink noise samples slowly being moved out of phase; with a large document talking about the emotional impact of certain parts etc. Lot of crap, in my opinion; but that’s my opinion and art is subjective, the folk doing the grading liked it (or liked the essay).

Art doesn’t ever need justifying. But you’re allowed to say you think it’s crap.

If art doesn’t ever need justifying why do so many ‘artists’ feel the need to spend so much time and effort justifying themselves in speech and writing?

 

[Pete Thomas]

that’s not the art that needs justifying, but the funds.

No you have to justify the art is worthy of the funding. Well that seemed to be the case when when I was trying. It also applied in academic research funding for composing.

But you’re perfectly entitled to announce that any art you perceive is crap or nonsense or whatever.

It’s not something I would do (maybe I may have done once but I wouldn’t now).

But I do agree with you, that is indeed anyone’s right. I may well say I don’t like or understand something but I don’t think I would call any art crap or nonsense because I like to be open minded and I also assume we can all have different tastes.

 

[mizmar]

Art doesn’t ever need justifying.

Surely anyone who's ever: painted, written, played, sculpted something they consider artistic will have reasons to have gone that way - arguably their justification for their creation.
Hell, even a generative AI will have created some slop, justified as being a statistically close approximation, in a vast hyperdimensional space of symbols, to what was asked of it.
The consumer might not care. Sometimes people wonder - or discuss at length, if they're journalists, critics, Café members or academics - what the persona justification was. But no one needs to do that, of course.

 

[Grumps]

She’s sold millions of records and has 650k Instagram followers, not to mention being cited as an inspiration by many artists. I would like to be that “not well-liked.”

Born after '64 then, eh?

 

[Zasterz]

Born after '64 then, eh?

Not sure what you’re getting at. Yoko has plenty of fans born before ‘64. Elvis Costello, for example. Not everyone is stuck in that weird blaming her for the Beatles breakup thing, if that’s what you mean.

 

[Pete Effamy]

the folk doing the grading liked it (or liked the essay).

Typical. The lecturers should have to justify their job position.