Tech/maintenance Holton C Melody Restoration

[Ghr9204]

That is quite a turn around, @PigSquealer , by the time you are done it will look like its showroom debut in a music store back then. 😎

 

[jonf]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, @PigSquealer The way the keys have come up is amazing. It does put my own efforts into perspective, though. I was feeling a bit smug about having cleanly removed a snapped octave key spring until I read your thread.

 

[PigSquealer]

That is quite a turn around, @PigSquealer , by the time you are done it will look like its showroom debut in a music store back then. 😎

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, @PigSquealer The way the keys have come up is amazing. It does put my own efforts into perspective, though. I was feeling a bit smug about having cleanly removed a snapped octave key spring until I read your thread.

Well some keys turned out very nice. Others were not so lucky. Starting with burnishing and then a little machine buffing. It is what it is sometimes. Let’s just say this one looks great at 4 feet. Still a decent improvement overall😉

@jonf removing any screw in less than a day is a great success. The octave hinge rod and flat spring screw counts as two. You’re doing better than you realized. Keep it up Soon you’ll be doing a repair thread !

 

[PigSquealer]

After the initial body wash I did do some minor repairs.
The body had a nice bend of 1/4”, 6mm. Look straight down inside the body tube. A little light shining into the bottom. If earth does not look flat on all sides, Houston has a problem.

I’ve made a little DIY tool for attitude adjusting sax-oh-bend. Bits of scrap metal come in handy. This should answer the question about the sharpie notes on the left side of the workbench. still need to make some other sizes. That’s my blueprint.
I know you people spy on everything

 

[PigSquealer]

A swine tool for the task

Using a rubber jewelers anvil to prevent shock I give it a few wacks.
I don’t like doing this on units with soldered tone holes. Always a chance of one cracking loose. Most often after straightening a body post alignment will be necessary also. That will be done in the key fitting stage. I anticipate big gaps between the upper stack posts.

Let’s see if anyone notices

Good to go.

 

[PigSquealer]

After the wack attack I’ve checked all the tone holes for leaks. All the posts are inline. Checking tone holes for leaks is a simple task. A drop of lighter fluid at the base of the chimney exterior will expose leaks by flowing to the inside. With a black glove on. Touch the interior joint. If there is a leak you will see a wet spot on the glove. I’ve found a big one.

No big deal. It happens. There is very little surface area at the joint. It’s 100 years old. Fix it and move on.
Options,
All require cleaning the joint best as possible but one. Complete removal.

1, Clear fingernail polish. Max leak @ 1/4”,6mm or less.
2, Super glue, I don’t like doing this on leaks over 3/4”, 17mm or small chimneys beyond halfway loose/leaking. Note that on smaller tone holes you pick your evil. Other components in close proximity could be accidentally dismounted.
3, Re-solder the leaking area. Assess the risk of not getting it clean enough. The metal flows but doesn’t bond.
4, Complete Remove and Replace.

I went with choice three. I was able to get a sliver of sandpaper between the joint most of the way. Grit up and then grit down. I used a piece of thick paper between the body and chimney towards the very edges where it was tight. This spread the parts enough to get a little more cleaning in. Picked from inside the last few mm. Be careful not to bend the chimney !

I think I got it clean enough. Not 100% sure. Under a magnifying glass it looks questionable. The part is secure & not leaking. Going to clean up the mess and move on. Give the area a rinse with a little baking soda mixed in water. That will neutralize the flux and prevent further corrosion.

Yeah, sometimes I have a bad day

 

[PigSquealer]

I also straightened this out a bit before cleaning. It’s a real pain to get in there even with the cloth guard straight.

I got lucky this time Nothing came loose.
These things are notorious for popping off the body. About 30 to 1 tone hole.

 

[jonf]

@jonf removing any screw in less than a day is a great success. The octave hinge rod and flat spring screw counts as two. You’re doing better than you realized. Keep it up Soon you’ll be doing a repair thread !

Thanks for the encourgement.

It was actually the 8ve body needle spring which had snapped. It had gone right by the post, leaving no stub. My guess was that whoever inserted it put a simple bend in it, rather than working in a nice radius, and this caused a point of weakness which failed.

When I saw it, I wondered how I was going to get it out, so I sat and thought about it for a while. I remembered I'd bought a pick set, to use when removing some O rings from a motorcycle fuel line. As well as the curved one I wanted for that job, there was also an inline pick. I managed to get enough purchase on the stub of the spring with the point of the pick and gave it a couple of light taps with a tiny medical hammer I got from somewhere. The spring slipped out just enough for me to grab it with the jaws of some needle nosed pliers, and out it came. Crisis averted.

 

[Ghr9204]

When I saw it, I wondered how I was going to get it out, so I sat and thought about it for a while. I remembered I'd bought a pick set, to use when removing some O rings from a motorcycle fuel line. As well as the curved one I wanted for that job, there was also an inline pick. I managed to get enough purchase on the stub of the spring with the point of the pick and gave it a couple of light taps with a tiny medical hammer I got from somewhere. The spring slipped out just enough for me to grab it with the jaws of some needle nosed pliers, and out it came. Crisis averted.

You mention motorcycles and @PigSquealer mentioned swine tools. 9 years ago, rather than buying Kawasaki's special tool to set the front fork seals and covers for $180 US for my Kawasaki Voyager XII tourer, I went to my local home improvement center and bought a 2.25 inch pipe nipple and 2.25 in. x 2.5 in. pipe reducer bushing for around $12. assembled them and set my fork seals and covers.

Somewhere I have a photo of where I bumped out the bottom of the bow on my early 1950's Beaugnier Vito using the combination of a broom handle through the bell, followed with half inch iron pipe and a cast iron cap, but can't find where I stored those photos. I was able to remove the dent without tool marks showing in the exterior body. Thus I avoided unsoldering the bottom guard.

 

[PigSquealer]

@ghostler I love it. Practically the same plumbing parts I use to extract and install the swingarm pivot bushings on a 240 Volvo.
I’m a little fussy around hard chrome sliders.

 

[PigSquealer]

Posts aligned. Key fitting done. Key fit between posts / keys done. No end play. Work checked over tone holes, centered and the fulcrum is correct to be parallel cup to tone hole face.

Parallel alignment checked to where the rod drops straight through the opposite tube.

I actually took picture just before assembling the final job. Yeah it’s done and playing😉

Pads selected I realized I haven’t addressed loose post holes to rod fit yet. A sympathetic restoration. I don’t care to hear noisy keywork.
I flashed the inside of numerous post holes with a spot of 6% silver solder. Clean-flux-chip of metal inserted. Heat exterior to flow. Clean with baking soda-water mix to neutralize. Gently ream with a chucking reamer made from the same size or smaller rod.

Between all these things….I addressed pull down on neck and a dent.

Time to check dry fit of pads. The tone holes have been checked for level. I have not filed or dressed any of them. The tolerances will be checked on the dry fit stage.

 

[PigSquealer]

Dry fitting went well. A few glitches but nothing abnormal. The .160 / 4mm pad thickness is perfect.
Always be on the lookout for things you may have missed. This D cup on the anvil looked fine. I’ll give it a little more attention.

Fit of E was good. The fork finger to D looks overworked. Not going to mess with that until the regulation stage.

F looks in range to install and plan on minor adjustments. The toe is hitting minutely early. (Heel is hinge side, sliver of gap)

The F# pad is a tad proud. Everything is tight on the back bar. I will iron the F# down a smidgen on the backside. This will lower the key cup and raise the back bar. Thus increasing the distance for regulation material. As it is everything is closing simultaneously within tolerance. With the keys open to 5mm I have 3/64”-1.2mm under key feet to body.

 

[PigSquealer]

The upper stack was largely uneventful. Although I did iron the G pad some to get it sitting proper. Not everything is a off-the-shelf fit. There is some discretion left to the craftsman (person).

Before

After ironing. Visually hard to tell the difference. Sometimes it’s also necessary to peen down the rivet. depends on the key cup. Concave or flat ?

Oops ! Forgot about this post being pushed in. Upper stack pads are in and sealing.

 

[PigSquealer]

Lower stack pads installed. Also a few other keys. Haven’t needed to file a single tone hole yet ! A dead giveaway on silver plated is plating missing on face of rim.

Notice some cup faces didn’t completely buff out scratch free. Even with Machine buffing 90° to the scratches. FWIW if you’re trying to buff scratches go at a right angle. Otherwise you’re just making the scratches deeper.

 

[PigSquealer]

Remember this beauty from early on? I guess I didn’t take a picture of a side view of the pad.

No big deal as I have this one. At least I can see the pad was somewhat level in the cup. Heavy impression.

Heavy witness marks on the key arm tell me it’s been worked on some. Using a thinner pad compared to what was installed. The dry fit is not looking well.

I Ironed down the backside of the pad. .163 /4.15mm is now .149 /3.79mm and still way off. Visually it looks like no change.
I could shave a little leather off the backside but it’s already thinned down from ironing. Comparing the part to my other in-house examples the key arm is way too straight. This probably explains the tool marks visible.

A slight bend of the key arm puts me more in the ballpark. Just a little twist and I should be done.

Good enough. With a hard disk I’ll burnish the rim of the tone hole.

 

[Ghr9204]

Those tool marks on that key, I cringe when I see work done in less than a professional manner, especially on an instrument. It is difficult if not impossible to clean up scars on non-replaceable or non-easily replaceable parts.

Appreciate your pro tips on these repairs, @PigSquealer .

Perhaps this is why a plumber in our small city has a slogan on the back of his tool truck, "We fix your husband's plumbing repairs."

 

[PigSquealer]

Those tool marks on that key, I cringe when I see work done in less than a professional manner, especially on an instrument. It is difficult if not impossible to clean up scars on non-replaceable or non-easily replaceable parts.

I was just informed by the owner that “ Gazzu's horn” was most likely serviced/repaired in the late 30s or pre-war. Small town.
in that environment you’re lucky someone knows repair. Knowing Repair and having a source to tools ? Back in the day you did what you could to make it work. A few Ca-chinks in the armor won’t effect the sound😉

 

[PigSquealer]

Working on getting this mess straightened out. Two options on removing the pearls. Soaking in alum to eat the rods out or cracking the pearls off and hopefully salvaging the pins.

i’ve gone with the first option and cracked three of the rollers off. The pins came out easily. Good thing too. I don’t have any dies that size. they should clean up enough to be reused.

 

[PigSquealer]

I did some preliminary straightening of the pinky table. Not too much. Overworking the parts can cause heavy use of undesirable household language. I know it’s going to be a Craftsmans finish to make everything work correctly. I’m fortunate to have a couple of other unspoiled samples on hand. The table parts themselves are not a close fit to each other.

Comparing to my other unit the Lo C# is really close to the wire guard.

The wire guard was pretty beat up. Oddly right next to the cup. Things cleaned up. I installed the part and re-checked pad seal. Overall the table is in doable adjustment range.

With the lower stack off I had set the bell keys and C# to seal. Ouch !
Contact on B arm to E cup shouldn’t be there

Key not closing too. Grrrrr

This is also the tone hole chimney I had to solder back on. The only pad I couldn’t get to seal without filling flat. And it didn’t take much at that.

 

[ESJohn]

I've never used this on my sax, but I do use it for polishing brass. I've seen it with lemon oil and coconut oil, as shown.
Probably not for intricate work, but maybe on the body when everything is removed?
Your project is fascinating! I wouldn't know where to start!