Saxophones Getting your own sound (as opposed to tone)

[Colin the Bear]

I've only had my hands on one saxophone with crook pull down, that I know about. A TJ raw tenor. It really spoiled the horn. Intonation was out and needed player input to correct and the core tone felt like it was "strangled". Necks are funny things.

 

[Grumps]

I thought I was going mad but you confirm a different neck can make a difference.

A different neck plays differently. Not necessarily better. Not necessarily worse. And sometimes wildly out of tune if not made to specifically fit your horn. However, I do find just putting on another neck to see what happens is an incredible waste of time, effort and ultimately, expenditure, but didn't we go through this before? If not with you, forgive me. There's the reasoned response.

 

[Dr G]

No, not quite.

Sure, you can alter the tone by shifting positions but these tend to be 'effects' rather than a standard playing position. You do not want to find yourself locked into an unnatural playing position.
The approach angle is more about how the horn feels - hence 'difference in the WAY the horn plays'.
It's the middle line - it's where you and the horn need to be. From there you can go anywhere...but you don't want to stay there.

Yes, quite. Have you never seen a person with their head tipped down to the mouthpiece? Get the same person/same horn to stand up straight then adjust the neck strap so the mouthpiece comes to their face with their head upright >> different approach angle. Two things happen there: the direction of the air into the mouthpiece and the amount of lip on the underside of the reed. Both can affect the sound. When the head is upright, the airway is more open as well.

The approach angle can also change drastically with whether the horn hangs freely from the neck strap vs pushing forward with the right thumb until the horn body is nearly vertical.

My bottom line for posture and horn position: erect posture and vertical horn whether sitting or standing.

 

[cappers]

A different neck plays differently. Not necessarily better. Not necessarily worse. And sometimes wildly out of tune if not made to specifically fit your horn. However, I do find just putting on another neck to see what happens is an incredible waste of time, effort and ultimately, expenditure, but didn't we go through this before? If not with you, forgive me. There's the reasoned response.

Cheers @Grumps

Got to remember I'm a beginner who noticed a difference in tone on two seemingly identical horns and was puzzled. So I swapped the neck to see if the perceived 'darkness' of the Vito was the horn or the neck, and as said it appears the neck does have an impact in this case. Luckily a positive one, time may tell different. Cost me nothing and has added to my understanding of saxes.

but didn't we go through this before? If not with you, forgive me.

I don't think I have raised the issue of swapping necks before? If so I apologise.

 

[Ghr9204]

A different neck plays differently. Not necessarily better. Not necessarily worse. And sometimes wildly out of tune if not made to specifically fit your horn.

This is one of the reasons why I will reject the purchase of a used sax in otherwise good state of repair (for donating to a saxist or student in need) or "dirt cheap" (project sax), if it has other than the OEM neck or is absent the OEM neck. One exception is a Bundy II alto, because I have an extra neck. (So far I have not found a Bundy II in acceptable shape missing the neck, so it remains an exra.)

Short of troubleshooting problems, IMO neck swapping is for the advanced/pro player who is looking to tweak his/her tone and knows exactly what they are doing. IMO for my purposes, the higher cost of aftermarket necks does not justify the minute gains over the OEM, hence why most players retain the OEM neck and continue to use it.

I am not negating those who do swap necks and have found their horn is now a better player, kudos to you. And, if you wear a hat, dark glasses and dance whilst playing your sax, then more power to you. 😉

 

[Stephen Howard]

My bottom line for posture and horn position: erect posture and vertical horn whether sitting or standing.

Yep - YOUR bottom line.
It's a good starting point but lots of players, including myself, find it stiff and unnatural.
And this is rather my point. It's worth finding out what approach suits the individual rather than forcing them into a textbook "A Tune a Day" posture. If it doesn't suit you it just builds tension.
It's the Dizzy thing all over again. It gets old.

Had a similar chap at the archery club. Insisted my barebow posture was all over the place, as well as my anchor point.
On a good day he makes it to Bowman 2nd class. On my good day I'm at Grand Master Bowman.
He doesn't say much anymore...

 

[Stephen Howard]

Short of troubleshooting problems, IMO neck swapping is for the advanced/pro player who is looking to tweak his/her tone and knows exactly what they are doing. IMO for my purposes, the higher cost of aftermarket necks does not justify the minute gains over the OEM, hence why most players retain the OEM neck and continue to use it.

It's a good option for players who're otherwise happy with the horn and the mouthpiece but want a slightly different soundscape...or perhaps another option for a different style of playing. But yeah, you really do have to know what you're doing because it's seldom a cheap option.
Funnily enough I see crook swaps on Yamahas more than on any other horns - but that might be because they're quite responsive to such changes.

 

[Dr G]

Yep - YOUR bottom line.
It's a good starting point but lots of players, including myself, find it stiff and unnatural.
And this is rather my point. It's worth finding out what approach suits the individual rather than forcing them into a textbook "A Tune a Day" posture. If it doesn't suit you it just builds tension.

If the sound sucks, I don't care if they are tension-free. Similarly with players that slouch in their chairs - they may be comfortable, but their sound often sucks, lacks support, and has limited dynamic range. If we are here for the music, then we need to find a middle path that serves the body and the music.

Had a similar chap at the archery club. Insisted my barebow posture was all over the place, as well as my anchor point.
On a good day he makes it to Bowman 2nd class. On my good day I'm at Grand Master Bowman.

Good for you finding what works to achieve the goal of hitting the target. I'm betting we wouldn't hear this story if it didn't have a successful outcome. My approach of applying good biomechanics has served me well in martial arts, pistol shooting, white water canoeing, and bicycling. But here we go into alt.reminisce territory. 😎

Be well, Stephen. Respect.

 

[eb424]

My g1 on the YAS32 Alto did really seem to make a difference. Weird..

 

[Dr G]

My g1 on the YAS32 Alto did really seem to make a difference. Weird..

Yes, necks are different. Sometimes good, but not always. Sometimes they will transform an instrument - from good to unplayable (I’m recalling a thin-wall solid silver Selmer Serie II neck that I tried on my Serie III).

Why is that weird?

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’m passable at Tiddlywinks…

 

[Stephen Howard]

If the sound sucks, I don't care if they are tension-free. Similarly with players that slouch in their chairs - they may be comfortable, but their sound often sucks, lacks support, and has limited dynamic range. If we are here for the music, then we need to find a middle path that serves the body and the music.

Good for you finding what works to achieve the goal of hitting the target. I'm betting we wouldn't hear this story if it didn't have a successful outcome. My approach of applying good biomechanics has served me well in martial arts, pistol shooting, white water canoeing, and bicycling. But here we go into alt.reminisce territory. 😎

Be well, Stephen. Respect.

Oh for sure - if the sound sucks then something needs to be done about it. Completely agree.
Just like selecting crooks to change the sound, you gotta know what you're doing or it's all going to be a costly mistake.
And yeah, there are plenty of times when I watch and hear a newbie client play where I make a few suggestions regarding posture and strap height - but when the player is making all the right noises I have to assume that they know what they're doing and that their approach is hard won. You have to pay your dues before you can break 'the rules'. That, I guess, is the middle line.

I tried the biometric approach with regard to my archery. It's the standard approach. It all made perfect sense...but it just didnt give me consistent results. And then I spoke to one of the guys who competes (well) in the UK barebow championship league - who told me that the textbook approach is just that....and if you don't have a textbook body (which he definitely doesn't!) it isn't always going to work. We made three or four changes to my posture and bang! Back in the golds.

 

[eb424]

Yes, necks are different. Sometimes good, but not always. Sometimes they will transform an instrument - from good to unplayable (I’m recalling a thin-wall solid silver Selmer Serie II neck that I tried on my Serie III).

Why is that weird?

Not weird I guess just that it made quite a difference, soundwise.

 

[cappers]

I don't think I have raised the issue of swapping necks before? If so I apologise.

@Grumps Apologies.
I did ask about necks on the thread Saxophones - KB sax necks

 

[thomsax]

Saxes, crooks, mouthpieces, reeds ..... can be important.

The saxophone is a physical instrument. More or less. It doesn't matter what kind of equipment you have if you aren't able to blow. We need to have basic breathing technique, lung capacity, carry a sax with your neck/shoulders, ok throat and oral cavity, ok sight, ok memory, embouchure .... we must mantain all this.

The mouthpieces and reeds are important to me. Saxes ... if your body is not with you the sax or neck doesn't matter. A leaking Weltklang can be just perfect for an older player. You have to blow a little bit harder to make it sing!

I try to do the same things as I did when I was 40. What a dream if would get a call from a band and to asked to join thier Punk or Pubrock band!

 

[jazzdoh]

I personally think to some small degree that we all have our distinct sound (once we have nailed in enough practise) we all have different physiology and all have different sound in our head, of course you still get players wanting to sound like their heroes and thats fine, but for me finding your own sound is more important (i just don't get fighting your own sound so as to sound like someone else.)
What Colin said is spot on, you can't buy your sound it has to be earned but you still get players that simply don't believe it and will spend hundreds on buying the next big thing mouthpiece.

We probably will never get to the sound of the greats but really does that matter, enjoy what you have whilst you are on the journey of improving.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The approach angle is more about how the horn feels - hence 'difference in the WAY the horn plays'.
It's the middle line - it's where you and the horn need to be. From there you can go anywhere...but you don't want to stay there.

Does this look like an unusal approach angle?

 

[David Roach]

It's been a pet topic of mine: tone versus sound. If you disagree that they are different things re: saxophones, maybe this isn't a good thread for you (or maybe it is if we want some healthy, robust yet somehow polite debate.

So right from the start let me give my definition:

Tone and sound are not the same thing​

• Tone: you can think of this as the “raw” (or maybe core?) unprocessed sound made when you blow into a saxophone. It can be scientifically measured in terms of harmonics or frequencies.
• Sound: this is the end result after you have added a little personal magic to make it more personal, characterful, or expressive. This can be a specific vibrato, changes of pitch, dynamics and articulation. Or adding effects such as growl, airyness etc

This can apply to saxophones, mouthpieces and reeds. The question being: what kind of a horn or setup helps you get your ideal or unique "own" bestsound?

This brings up another argument I have thought about. Sometimes the best saxophones have a character or tonal quality that, while being a great tone, do not allow you, the player, to shape it so well into your "sound." I've come across supposedly "lesser quality" (student) instruments that some may think meh - a bit bland compared to my MKVI, but could that very blandness be what can make them versatile, as opposed to the more "professional" horns that seem to be great tone-wise but not so versatile?

I think tone and sound, whilst very linked, are still individual aspects.
I know a few wonderful players who have - in isolation - very poor, or even crude (or at the other extreme boring) tones. But dang it they sound fantastic when they really play because their personalities shine through.
I also know people with excellent tone who show little personality in their playing.

But as @Pete Effamy says, it's different from a 'classical' perspective, where tone and sound are almost indivisible because 'personality' in classical music is not as important as excellence of execution. In fact too much personality in classical performance is not welcomed because it detracts from the the composers' intentions. And as we know, the composer is 'god' in classical music.

I remember a friend of mine who is (mainly) what you would call a 'very good jazz musician' implying that he rather thought obsession with 'tone' to be a distraction for an improviser. which I can agree with.

For me, naturally good intonation and a clear idea of what a player is saying is more important; in time with enough experience, practice and increased confidence, personality will start to come through quite naturally.

 

[thomsax]

For about 15 years ago, I was 55 back then, I talk to some younger players about embouchure and to blow sax. They didn't like older players embouchure, which they called "gubba-ambis" (old man embouchure), in the sax section of the thier big band. I promised my self to keep my "ambis" strong and powerful. I have invited the guys to blues and rock jam ... but no sight of them. As former football and hockey player I like "shoulder to shoulder and in-fighting" as well. That's why it's so important to me to be able to continue to play my Rovner Deep - V #10.😉

 

[Stephen Howard]

Does this look like an unusal approach angle?

Yes it does - on the face of it - but a still photo doesn't give you any context. He's got his eyes closed and he looks quite relaxed...so maybe that's his smoochy subtone playing position.
But then if you check out a video of him playing you'll see he often uses an even steeper approach angle. But then he's noted as a clarinet player, so that more acute approach angle is going to feel quite natural.
It clearly works for him though.

Also, if you take a look at the last minute or so of this video you might notice that his tenor crook looks somewhat odd. He's clearly had the angle tweaked to accommodate his playing position. I do much the same to my tenors on a much more modest scale...just to give the end of the crook a little lift.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRKkYO5qEis