Saxophones Getting your own sound (as opposed to tone)

[cappers]

Did you check that the crook key was closing properly when you put the Vito crook on the 25? There's no other reason why it would squeal. It's worth trying again - and for an extra measure, put a lump of Blu-Tack over the relief slot below the crook clamp sockets.

Thank you, I'll try that tomorrow.

Top marks @Stephen Howard, ace diagnostic skills!

I put Blu-Tack around the neck joint and over the relief slot - no difference, still squealed like a pig. Then I noticed that there was a minuscule gap when the key was closed - it looks like the arm has been bent and reformed. Pushing down on the keypad and all sounded normal.

Thank you.

 

[Grumps]

As regards tone/sound in general...
My old sax teacher always said that if you have a good tone, folks will listen to you no matter what you play.

But if you jump around and dance a bit with a hat and sunglasses, they'll think you're good.

Seriously though, I'm also strongly in the camp that equipment had nothing to do with any of this. Finding the right matching equipment allows you to play more comfortably, but that's about it. The hardest thing about playing saxophone is making it sound like a saxophone. So your old sax teacher is right on point there. Thing is though, not everybody gets over that first hurdle; to make it sound like a proper saxophone. We've all heard them. Then they get rooked into buying all sorts of gear that's supposed to get them there thinking they're chasing their personal sound (or maybe someone else's like Dexter) when they haven't even gotten their tone squared away. First things first.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You can't buy your sound. You have to earn it. 😉

 

[cappers]

I really would like to know how much is the horn and how much is me.
Cheers

It’s you.

After a lot of trial and error I agree.

• I played the Vito neck on the Vito and then on the 25 (once I'd sorted the octave key issue - post #41 above) and they sounded the same, with that warmth I associate with the Vito.​
• Can't play the 25 neck on the Vito as won't fit.​
• Played Vito neck on the Vito and the Yam neck on the 25......sounded almost the same but again the Vito was a shade 'warmer'.​

The necks look identical and measured the same from pip to either end etc. but the Vito neck is approx 3-4g heavier so perhaps a slightly smaller bore? Would that account for any difference I hear?

You can't buy your sound. You have to earn it. 😉

Yes @Colin the Bear you are absolutely correct and I'm striving daily to earn a decent tone.
I've improved compared to a few months ago, onwards and upwards. Good thing is I enjoy it so much it isn't a chore or a grind, just keep with the long tones!

 

[MikeMorrell]

Wow, what an interesting thread! I'm learning a lot.

I'm just - after 35 years - still a (very) amateur sax player in (very) amateur bands. Mostly Big Bands. Back in the day when I first rented (at almost 40) my first sax, I gradually discovered that there was a bit more to playing sax that just 'blaring out notes'. So I gradually learned about 'breathing', 'tone', 'dynamics', 'voicing' etc.

I bought my 'rented sax' (a 'Vito') after 3 months. And I played it very happily for about the next 10 years. I 'upgraded' my Selmer mpc to slightly wider tip openings every few years whenever I really felt constricted by the amount of air I could get into the mpc (at ff) without the reed (3-3.5) closing up completely.

Early on, I read some article - not this one - but one with a similar conclusion
- bottom line: 80% - 90% of a sax player's 'sound' is determined by the sax player; with 10%-20% determined by sax +set-up
- another 'conclusion' was that choice of mpc had more impact on a sax player's 'sound' than the brand/model of the sax body.

I'm not qualified, talented or experienced enough to form an opinion on these claims.

I've upgraded (?) my sax body only once in 35 years.

 

[Grumps]

The necks look identical and measured the same from pip to either end etc. but the Vito neck is approx 3-4g heavier so perhaps a slightly smaller bore? Would that account for any difference I hear?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Swill some vinegar through the neck and then wash it out with water. You won't believe what comes out on a pull through. JBT used to call it "groceries"

 

[cappers]

@Grumps
Yes I know it sounds stupid given all the discussions about tone and sound.

There are different necks available for many horns, with manufacturers and users saying a change in the bore will have an impact on the tone, even if minimal.

The Vito neck is heavier and having the same dimensions as the 23 neck I assume the wall might be thicker thus the internal bore smaller, which might influence the tone.

A reasoned answer would be far nicer than a sarcastic image or comment 😉

 

[cappers]

Swill some vinegar through the neck and then wash it out with water. You won't believe what comes out on a pull through. JBT used to call it "groceries"

I'll have you know I keep my necks tip top condition, no groceries in them 😛
Both sax were second hand and I gave the necks and mpcs a thorough treatment before use, always swab and dry after use, rinse mpc and neck weekly.

 

[Colin the Bear]

A narrower tube, of the same length, plays at a higher pitch.

A shorter tube, of the same bore, plays at a higher pitch.

The weight difference might be due to the thickness of the brass, or the composition, or the dimensions of the octave mechanism.

To play at the same pitch the internal dimensions of a tube of fixed length, have to be the same.

 

[cappers]

Let me reiterate, particularly for @Grumps ! (nominative determinism?)

I know that the sound I make is down to me full stop.
It has very little to do with equipment,
I will sound like me on a YTS-25 or a Selmer Mark IV or a kazoo.
The only way to improve and get the sound I want is to work on it, forever.

I was just asking a simple question OK?

 

[skeller047]

Necks are a mystery - as are mouthpieces. I’ve been “working on” (“futzing” may be a more accurate word) mouthpieces for 40 years, off and on, with some success. They are much easier to fool around with than necks; small hand tools and a lot of patience are all that’s required. (Plus a lot of free/cheap experimental subjects from various back rooms of music stores…)

@cappers your experience with the neck is not unusual. But I doubt if you will find a difference that you can see. In my experience 0.0005” (0.0125 mm) can make a huge difference in a mouthpiece, in terms of tone and stability. Given that the neck is “downstream” from the mouthpiece, it might take a larger difference to be noticeable, but even a factor of 10 here is still small enough to require very good equipment (and Optivisors!) to determine. And whether a particular difference will change anything is also mysterious. This is why “neck gurus” can charge so much for their work.

My advice - play the Vito neck, on the horn that you feel most comfortable on and just forget about it. This story shows why many top pro players will try 5 or 10 seemingly identical horns to find “the one” that works best. And also know that a different player, just as skilled, might choose a different “the one”. It’s a mystery, though a lovely one, just like life.

 

[Dr G]

After a lot of trial and error I agree.

• I played the Vito neck on the Vito and then on the 25 (once I'd sorted the octave key issue - post #41 above) and they sounded the same, with that warmth I associate with the Vito.​
• Can't play the 25 neck on the Vito as won't fit.​
• Played Vito neck on the Vito and the Yam neck on the 25......sounded almost the same but again the Vito was a shade 'warmer'.​

Necks deserve their own thread - maybe even subforum.

The necks look identical and measured the same from pip to either end etc. but the Vito neck is approx 3-4g heavier so perhaps a slightly smaller bore? Would that account for any difference I hear?

You hear a difference because they are different necks. If you play 10 different necks of the same make/model, it is likely that you will experience variability as well.

If you REALLY like the Vito neck, get it sized to fit your Yamaha - assuming that is the horn you choose to commit to. But even if the tone is more pleasant to your ear, you may find that it has tuning idiosyncracies that differ from the Yamaha neck. As Steve comments, there is Stuff going on in a neck that you cannot measure without the right tools - you really need to directly measure the ID with reference to the distance from the tip. Even if you use ball gauges, you may not capture whether the bore is slightly out-of-round at that point - you will only measure the smallest diameter. You might assume that you could measure the OD accurately, but that doesn't account for variation in wall thickness. Then, even if you have a great neck, a poor tenon fit at the body can spoil everything.

I have trod this trail with several different horns and dozens of necks. It sounds like you may be on the same path. Best wishes.

P.S. and OBTW, in my experience, the stock neck was the ultimate winner on most good horns (eg. Selmer and Borgani).

 

[Stephen Howard]

• I played the Vito neck on the Vito and then on the 25 (once I'd sorted the octave key issue - post #41 above) and they sounded the same, with that warmth I associate with the Vito.​
• Can't play the 25 neck on the Vito as won't fit.​
• Played Vito neck on the Vito and the Yam neck on the 25......sounded almost the same but again the Vito was a shade 'warmer'.​

The necks look identical and measured the same from pip to either end etc. but the Vito neck is approx 3-4g heavier so perhaps a slightly smaller bore? Would that account for any difference I hear?

The weight of the crook won't make a difference - it's all in the very boring internal dimensions.
If you're not convinced, slap a large ball of Blu-Tack on the crook and see what happens.

I've done many, many hundreds of setup jobs on batches of 'identical' horns - and if you had ten such horns and played them one after the other you'd have two, maybe three or four, 'outliers' that were either noticeably brighter or warmer than the rest of the sample...with the rest being more or less similar but with subtle differences.
And then you can have lots of fun swapping round the crooks.

It's a bit like those classic western movies where the gunslinger makes a gun out of this barrel and that cylinder etc.

Anyway, glad you managed to get the test setup working. As you found out, the crook makes a LOT of difference - but there'll be differences in the dimensions of the horns too, which'll temper the tone somewhat.
If it comes down to it and you find you really want to put the 25 crook on the Vito, it can be adjusted to fit...and then re-adjusted to fit the 25 again.

Another test that's worth doing is standing the crooks side-by-side (tenon sleeve sitting on the table) and comparing the angle of the crook tips. Lots of players miss this little trick - and the 'approach angle' of the mouthpiece can make difference in the way the horn plays.

 

[Dr G]

Another test that's worth doing is standing the crooks side-by-side (tenon sleeve sitting on the table) and comparing the angle of the crook tips. Lots of players miss this little trick - and the 'approach angle' of the mouthpiece can make difference in the way the horn plays.

+1 From the player's side of things, that also means that you can alter the tone by changing how you hold the horn and how you position your head. Jaw structure will vary from player to player too - the posture and position that works for one player may will not work for everyone else. Bottom line: Listen while you experiment.

 

[Veggie Dave]

But if you jump around and dance a bit with a hat and sunglasses, they'll think you're good.

I certainly hope so!

 

[Pete Thomas]

But if you jump around and dance a bit with a hat and sunglasses, they'll think you're good.

Not necessarily. In some contexts they will just think you are a ****. Ask me how I know. On second thoughts please don’t.

 

[cappers]

@Dr G and @Stephen Howard Thank you for your considered replies. I thought I was going mad but you confirm a different neck can make a difference.

standing the crooks side-by-side (tenon sleeve sitting on the table) and comparing the angle of the crook tips.

Just did this and the Vito crook tip is about 1.5mm higher than the 25's. Back of packet trig gives angles of 15.9º for the Vito and 15.3º for the 25. The measurements were made quite simply so possible errors. I do know the tenon receiver on the 25 needed adjusting when I first got it as it was slightly oval. Is this a pulldown issue? Maybe the 25 plays as it should with an unbent neck?

RE 'approach angles' have sussed this out already, slight dip of my head for a fuller tone (less pressure on the reed?).

Anyway thanks for all the input. I will play the Vito neck on the 25 over the full range of the horn for a few days and make a decision, then get my tech to do whatever.

 

[Stephen Howard]

+1 From the player's side of things, that also means that you can alter the tone by changing how you hold the horn and how you position your head. Jaw structure will vary from player to player too - the posture and position that works for one player may will not work for everyone else. Bottom line: Listen while you experiment.

No, not quite.

Sure, you can alter the tone by shifting positions but these tend to be 'effects' rather than a standard playing position. You do not want to find yourself locked into an unnatural playing position.
The approach angle is more about how the horn feels - hence 'difference in the WAY the horn plays'.
It's the middle line - it's where you and the horn need to be. From there you can go anywhere...but you don't want to stay there.

It's kinda hard to experiment with it though. The simplest way is to put tape on one side of the crook cork to cant the mouthpiece. Throws the tuning out, but that's a secondary concern at this point.
You can listen all you like - but you'll know when you've hit the sweet spot because you feel it.
You could also try holding the horn 'off' but this introduces a variable. It's not ideal.
I've always felt that the Conn Microtuner was at the wrong end of the crook and that maybe they should have gone for the Conn Variangle...

Setting the position in stone tends to mean having the crook modified - either by unsoldering at the tenon sleeve and altering the angle or by bending the tip of the crook. I prefer the latter option for tenor, the former for alto and baritone. You can also have the sling ring shifted but then that tends to throw up problems with the balance of the horn in most cases.

 

[Stephen Howard]

@Dr G and @Stephen Howard Thank you for your considered replies. I thought I was going mad but you confirm a different neck can make a difference.

Just did this and the Vito crook tip is about 1.5mm higher than the 25's. Back of packet trig gives angles of 15.9º for the Vito and 15.3º for the 25. The measurements were made quite simply so possible errors. I do know the tenon receiver on the 25 needed adjusting when I first got it as it was slightly oval. Is this a pulldown issue? Maybe the 25 plays as it should with an unbent neck?

It's unlikely that an out of round receiver was caused by pull-down....unless it a was a pretty dramatic incident - in which case the crook would be a complete mess. It's more likely to have been caused by too loose a fit on the crook and someone giving the clamp screw too much welly over a period of time. Maybe.

If you run your finger and thumb around the tubing just prior to the octave key saddle you ought to be able to feel if the tubing is out of round...even if it looks perfect.
1.5mm isn't a great deal though, and probably relates to a little bit of pull-down. Easy enough to fix.