Playing the saxophone Embouchure Technique

jon

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(UPDATE - When I posted this, I was unaware of certain sections in the forum which make some of this question redundant-however I will leave the post as it is)

This question is really aimed at Pete, the site owner (but first a two paragraph preamble).

I found the articles on embrochure elswhere on this site very useful. This article includes scanned images from a book published by Selmer. (I would very much appreciate it if Pete can give the details of this book even though it is out of print, I am interested to see what the rest of the book says).

I had been using the embrochure style recommended in the articles reproduced by Pete but it was still very useful to see this in print. Until I saw these articles, the received wisdom from the classic texts such as Larry Teal's made me feel that I was 'unorthodox'.

Anyway, my question for Pete is whether he thinks it would be wise to encourage students to compare techniques and offer each other advice?

Whilst this may sound like an "obvious" good thing, I do actually believe that the idea needs to be approached with caution.

In retrospect I have doubts regarding advice I might have offered other players in my earlier years, and even after over a decade of playing I am not sure that I would want anyone to follow any advice I might have to offer in any more than an "experimental" frame of mind.

People like Pete have not only huge amounts of playing experience but also have teaching experience and are probably much safer sources of information than the rest of us.

After stating all these reservations I still think it is worth floating the question.

As an indication of possible directions, the following topics are ones I would like to discuss relate to tone quality.

1. "Vooh" and "Four" "whispered vocalisation" pertaining to advice offered by Sonny Rollins.
2. Aspects of releasing air and tension or strain with high notes.

Perhaps, (if Pete does like the idea) people who go on to offer each other advice could say what type of sax they play, for how long and what type of style so that others are given a context.

I am hesitant to pre-load this suggestion with my own personal view but my conscience dictates I offer the following advice that follows.

I would like to suggest that any intermediate sax player who decides to follow advice on breathing from an uncertain source does so very gently and slowly. There are singers and wind players out there who have suffered problems after following radical advice with a strong will. Your breathing mechanisms are very delicate and do not take kindly to having ideas forcibly thrust upon them, tread delicately and with patience.
 
Not that I (as a novice), attempt to nor have much advice to offer on sax playing, but as a beginner I am the recipient of advice? very welcome it is too.

My thoughts (as a novice and from the recipient perspective) are that Jon has broached an important point. As with many things in life, there are many diverse opinions and sax playing/teaching is a top the list for varying opinions, some (but NOT all) quiet understandable due to the main fickle component? the human (learner and teacher).

"Personally", I have struggled with some of the advice/suggestions in various learning publications, media and personal tuition. At times I have found the advice detrimental, but have persevered because I thought it was 'the right thing to do' and not to be contradictory (who me!!!).

One example (similar to Jon's embouchure point) and this is said with ABSOLUTELY NO disrespect to Pete/Teal, but I spent weeks following the 'smile ? whistle' technique to build up chop muscles. This turned out to be detrimental 'for me' as I ended up not being able to form a seal on the mpc. I tried to carefully analyse what had happened and found that this exercise builds strong lip and cheek muscles but misses (no matter how I did it) any muscles at the top and bottom corners of the mouth. You might find as I did, you can test this by doing the whistle-smile position and at the same time running the tongue around the inside of the lips and noticing the strong/weak muscle points. As I say, it is only my experience, but it left me with strong lip and cheek muscles which is good, but the corner mouth muscles didn't compensate and I was blowing more bubbles than notes (nothing new there then).

Back to Jon's point, I think it is a very daunting task (perhaps more so for older students) to pick out the good advice from the not so good and there is a natural concern of developing bad habits/techniques. My tutor, who is quiet an accomplished graduate from the Buenos Aires Music Conservatory, is very good, but I find (probably because I'm dozy) that even the most sympathetic tutors are set in their ways (human nature) and to a greater or lesser extent have forgotten what it is like take up a new instrument. Another aspect is the 'play in day' type tutorials/books, I've read some of these and they have ended up straight in the bin? some of those I think (mho) are dangerous. Pete's dvd (I'm looking forward to the next one) and Teals book along with my tutor are my reference points, but as good as they are, even these are a compromise to the way ' "I" would like' to be taught? but then we're all different.

Geez? I've been rambling again... sorry!!!
 
re: the other stuff in your post, I agree you have to be very careful with advice. I think many people on alt.music.saxophone and SOTW by the contradicting advice. I usually like to make clear that I give advice that is my opinion, not necessarily hard and fast rules. My teaching techniques are often unorthodox, and I'm asking fro trouble by sometimes saying that Larry Teals is wrong about some things. In fact I have been flamed once or twice for saying that there is not one correct embouchure.

In answer to your question I think it's very good for students (beginners to advanced) to compare techniques but as long as everybody realises that in some areas it's good to realise that there are sec=veral ways to skin a cat. Also some things are good for some people but not for others - it's so subjective and can be dangerous trying to teach or learn purely via the internet.
 
Re embouchure - can there be a 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it? It must depend partly on your mouth configuration I would think. The fact that I have a fairly pronounced overbite combined with quite a big gap between my front teeth (yeah, not a pretty picture, is it!?) would imply my best/most useable but not necessarily 'correct' embouchure is different from your average granite-jawed non-dentally challenged player, would it not?
 
At 11:34:32 PM 27/04/06, Bob Green wrote:
Re embouchure - can there be a 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it? It must depend partly on your mouth configuration I would think. The fact that I have a fairly pronounced overbite combined with quite a big gap between my front teeth (yeah, not a pretty picture, is it!?) would imply my best/most useable but not necessarily 'correct' embouchure is different from your average granite-jawed non-dentally challenged player, would it not?

I am sure you are right Bob otherwise we would all just go and see the embrochure expert get instructed and never look back, worse still we might all start to sound the same which would be worse still.

PS I liked your post in another section, about being relatively new and yet having the cahoonies (sp?) to jump in jam sessions, I hope you continue like that. Everyone says we learn by our mistakes but people seem scared to make them?


🙂
 
Thanks Jon. My willingness to jump into jams is many-faceted! I like playing, I like listening, I like learning in that environment, I like the feeling when something spontaneously just 'happens', I basically, to quote Nik Turner out of Hawkwind (here I show my age) 'just dig freaking about on saxes'. Man.
 
At 11:21:12 AM 28/04/06, jon wrote:
> At 11:34:32 PM 27/04/06, Bob Green wrote:
> Re embouchure - can there be a 'right' or 'wrong' way

PS I liked your post in another section, about being relatively new and yet having the cahoonies (sp?) to jump in jam sessions, I hope you continue like that. Everyone says we learn by our mistakes but people seem scared to make them?
🙂

FWIW (not much) the word is 'cojones' , jon
(I have learnt a little Spanish inthe 2 yrs I've lived here!)
>:)
 

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