Theory & Impro Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

[Pete Thomas]

EDIT:

I have moved this discussion from the modes thread as it is completely new and significant topic in its own right which has developed into an interesting.

A G13 chord is every single note of G Mixolydian.

Correct (although it isn't necessary to voice all the notes). But it is still a chord as opposed to a scale.

If you ask someone to play a G13 chord on the saxophone, I'd presume they might play:

G B D F A C E and not G A B C D E F

The first being an arpeggio, second being a scale)

 

[cappers]

Just thought the same before you posted.......

G A B C D E F G A B C D E
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
G B D F A C E

 

[Pete Thomas]

That's what I was alluding to when I wrote about the G7 chord being Gmaj7 with a b7 rather than the 5th mode of Cmajor.

But you mentioned:

On topic, it occurred to me that when I see G7 I think that's Gmaj7 with a b7 = mixolydian!

Certainly G7 can be thought of as Gmaj7 but with b7 instead of maj7, however G7 is not a mixolydian which is a mode or scale and definitely not a chord.

 

[skeller047]

Pete is right as usual.

Regarding 13th chords, what @Zasterz said is technically correct, but no one ever plays the chord that way. (Well, hardly ever). Why? Because the 11th (C in G13) will clash with B.

A “stock voicing” for G13 would be (starting with the G a 12th below middle C and going up):
G - F - B - E - A

A “close voicing” might be (starting on F below middle C):
F - B - E - G

Note there is no D either, the E is a substitute for it. The D could be added, either above the A on the first voicing, or next to the E, but the above voicings are very common. The C (11th) is almost never played.

 

[Zasterz]

Correct (although it isn't necessary to voice all the notes). But it is still a chord as opposed to a scale.

If you ask someone to play a G13 chord on the saxophone, I'd presume they might play:

G B D F A C E and not G A B C D E F

To be fair, you can’t actually play a chord on the saxophone (split tones notwithstanding.) You can play an arpeggio, scale-pattern, or other melodic shape. A scale isn’t defined by the order you play notes, it’s a pool of potential notes you can play in any order. I assume you’re not suggesting that you’d only describe a pattern or phrase as deriving from a scale (or mode) when it’s linear!

 

[Zasterz]

Pete is right as usual.

Regarding 13th chords, what @Zasterz said is technically correct, but no one ever plays the chord that way. (Well, hardly ever). Why? Because the 11th (C in G13) will clash with B.

A “stock voicing” for G13 would be (starting with the G a 12th below middle C and going up):
G - F - B - E - A

A “close voicing” might be (starting on F below middle C):
F - B - E - G

Note there is no D either, the E is a substitute for it. The D could be added, either above the A on the first voicing, or next to the E, but the above voicings are very common. The C (11th) is almost never played.

It doesn’t matter what voicing someone uses, the scale or chord in this case, is a set of possible notes, just like an alphabet. My (piano) voicing for G7 might often be F-B and nothing else. Naturally that doesn’t that mean G and D aren’t “in it”!

And if you play a Mixolydian phrase but avoid the C, no one would suggest “well, technically you’re not playing Mixolydian.”

If I play the sequence of notes you specified:
G - F - B - E - A
A listener can say I outlined a voicing for a G13 chord. Or they can say I played a G Mixolydian phrase. Either would be correct.

 

[Pete Thomas]

To be fair, you can’t actually play a chord on the saxophone (split tones notwithstanding.)

Exactly. That's why I presumed they would play an arpeggio (and not a scale)

A scale isn’t defined by the order you play notes, it’s a pool of potential notes you can play in any order.

I think it's fair to say there are different uses of the word.

When someone is learning or practising scales, then they mostly play the notes in order. Or at least that's the common perception of playing scales.

And yes, if you are thinking of scales as a pool of notes, e.g. for choosing from when improvising, then it's different. And I have tended to bang on about that both here and on TTS. So it's a different thing when you suggest either of these two:

• you can play a C minor harmonic scale over G7 - Cm cadence
• please can you play me a C minor harmonic

You would hope when improvising someone would learn how to be more creative than running up and down a scale, and that when demonstrating their knowldege of a scale in an exam though would play it up and down.

There are of course bound to be exceptions.

 

[Zasterz]

When someone is learning or practising scales, then they mostly play the notes in order. Or at least that's the common perception of playing scales.

On saxophone that’s certainly true. But on more visual instruments like piano and guitar, I’ve found it beneficial to get students used to the “pool of notes” idea as early as possible. In particular, I love this method of visualizing a scale on the piano keyboard as an unending pattern of 3-finger and 4-finger groups, taken from Randy Halberstadt’s wonderful Metaphors for the Musician.

These are meant to be practiced not just linearly, but as block “chords” and even just taking only one group (of 3 or 4) up and down the keyboard. It’s something like a fretboard pattern diagram for piano keyboard.

Metaphors for the Musician by Randy Halberstadt | Sher Music Co.

Metaphors For The Musician - This practical and enlightening book will help any jazz player or vocalist look at music with new eyes - music theory, but with a human touch.

www.shermusic.com

 

[mrblackbat]

To be fair, you can’t actually play a chord on the saxophone (split tones notwithstanding.) You can play an arpeggio, scale-pattern, or other melodic shape. A scale isn’t defined by the order you play notes, it’s a pool of potential notes you can play in any order. I assume you’re not suggesting that you’d only describe a pattern or phrase as deriving from a scale (or mode) when it’s linear!

Regardless of whether you play the chord or just outline it, the 4th/11th over a dominant chord fairly stinks. Hence why it gets called an avoid note.

As such folk often will play a #11 whether it’s indicated or not, further putting pay to the idea that a V chord is myxolydian

 

[Zasterz]

Regardless of whether you play the chord or just outline it, the 4th/11th over a dominant chord fairly stinks. Hence why it gets called an avoid note.

Never would suggest otherwise. My point was that’s the same whether you think G7, G13 or G Mixolydian.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Regardless of whether you play the chord or just outline it, the 4th/11th over a dominant chord fairly stinks. Hence why it gets called an avoid note.

Except when it sounds OK in context of course. I think it's called an avoid note because it's not advised for beginners, but I find it to be more of an "approach with caution" note. It can work well especially in a blues context.

Certainly with voicing when arranging it sounds (IMO) wrong when there is a b9 interval between the 3rd and 11th, but on inside parts where it is just a semitone it can sound fine and crunchy.

 

[mizmar]

It is a chord not a scale or mode

Talking of which, I'm wondering if the "chord" is useful?
Seems to me, the chord picks out the tasty notes og Major or Minor 1&5 nail the tonal center, 3 & 7 the variation. But once your "scale" (any sequence of notes with some amount of raising and lowering ) the chord could be missing out flavourings.

 

[Zasterz]

Except when it sounds OK in context of course. I think it's called an avoid note because it's not advised for beginners, but I find it to be more of an "approach with caution" note. It can work well especially in a blues context.

Certainly with voicing when arranging it sounds (IMO) wrong when there is a b9 interval between the 3rd and 11th, but on inside parts where it is just a semitone it can sound fine and crunchy.

Maybe I’m a bit bored but thought I’d record a wee mess-around. (Sounds fine to me.)

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

 

[skeller047]

Maybe I’m a bit bored but thought I’d record a wee mess-around. (Sounds fine to me.)

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid

Excellent!

If, on hearing that for the first time, and without the context of this discussion, I was asked to describe this composition, I would have said “A jaunty, floating melody in the mixolydian mode”.

One of the things often left out in this discussion of modes, scales and chords, is that when playing modally, every note in the mode has equal importance and weight, except perhaps the root is more important. When playing in the context of functional harmony, this is not the case. The chord tones in an associated scale have more importance and weight than the other notes, which are often referred to as “passing tones”.

When I see G13 I automatically think in a functional harmony context.

Jazz pedagogy has kind of conflated the idea of scales, modes and chords, which I think is unfortunate as it obscures the importance of “modal thought”, which is aptly illustrated by @Zasterz ’s lovely improvisation.

 

[cappers]

Regardless of whether you play the chord or just outline it, the 4th/11th over a dominant chord fairly stinks. Hence why it gets called an avoid note.

Except when it sounds OK in context of course. I think it's called an avoid note because it's not advised for beginners, but I find it to be more of an "approach with caution" note. It can work well especially in a blues context.

I understood how certain intervals don't usually work well together, unless intended for effect.
But it still eluded me in playing, why a certain note in the scale clashed on a chord.

@mrblackbat 's comment made me revisit chord structure and it clicked.
A 4th (11th) over a dominant chord will clash with the 3rd. e.g. F in Cmaj jars with the E, C in Gmaj with B, G in Dmaj with F#, Bb in Fmaj with A and so on, being a semitone/half step different.

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Please correct if wrong or missing something.

 

[GCinCT]

I understood how certain intervals don't usually work well together, unless intended for effect.
But it still eluded me in playing, why a certain note in the scale clashed on a chord.

@mrblackbat 's comment made me revisit chord structure and it clicked.
A 4th (11th) over a dominant chord will clash with the 3rd. e.g. F in Cmaj jars with the E, C in Gmaj with B, G in Dmaj with F#, Bb in Fmaj with A and so on, being a semitone/half step different.

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Please correct if wrong or missing something.

It is the same for a major chord. A major chord doesn’t have a minor 3. A minor chord does and the 11 doesn’t clash.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Well a minor 3rd on a major 7 (or triad) does clash IMO. But on a dominant 7 it sounds great IMO (aka ♭10 or #9). It can be good or bad clash most of the time. And if it's blues then you can throw that kind of rule out of window, along with different intonation.

being a semitone/half step different.

I don't find a semitone per se to be an issue. There can be a semitone between B and C on a C major 7 chord. If the C is at the top (in the melody) it can be an issue, but otherwise it's what I would often call a nice crunch. As with the semitone on a min9 chord between the 9th and 3rd. It can sound great. The semitone between 3rd and 4th (11th) can also sound OK depending on the context.

 

[skeller047]

I understood how certain intervals don't usually work well together, unless intended for effect.
But it still eluded me in playing, why a certain note in the scale clashed on a chord.

@mrblackbat 's comment made me revisit chord structure and it clicked.
A 4th (11th) over a dominant chord will clash with the 3rd. e.g. F in Cmaj jars with the E, C in Gmaj with B, G in Dmaj with F#, Bb in Fmaj with A and so on, being a semitone/half step different.

Would this be the same for any maj chord? The minors being b3 wouldn't clash?

Please correct if wrong or missing something.

Yes, the 4th / 11th is a common “avoid note” for chords with a major 3rd. In modern harmony, the 11th in a minor chord is not objectionable.

There are reasons for this. Primarily, in functional harmony it is common for chords to move along the circle of fourths/fifths. The 4th would then become the root of the next chord. Thus the 3rd of the current major chord functions as a leading tone moving to the 4th, which is the root of the next chord.

In a progression from C to F, the E wants to “resolve” to the F melodically.

 

[Zasterz]

Well a minor 3rd on a major 7 (or triad) does clash IMO.

Yes, the 4th / 11th is a common “avoid note” for chords with a major 3rd.

Nevertheless, (I assume) you all play this tune without objecting to it!

 

[skeller047]

Avoid note <-> appoggiatura. Semantics and context.