Theory & Impro Does a 13th chord include an 11th? 4ths as avoid notes.

[Zasterz]

play your little thing again, just the start but stop before you resolve the 11th anywhere, so just that first chord and the first three melody notes.

Tell me that doesn’t sound like you’re playing a wrong note.

Ok. Still sounds fine to me.

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid-2

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid-2

 

[mrblackbat]

No you didn’t listen to what I asked. Play up to the third C and stop; just let it hang there. The B and D are what make your melody sound pretty (well prettier; the end is still not nice) the C is just nasty tension. Music is tension and release, but just tension is jarring.

 

[Zasterz]

No you didn’t listen to what I asked. Play up to the third C and stop; just let it hang there. The B and D are what make your melody sound pretty (well prettier; the end is still not nice) the C is just nasty tension. Music is tension and release, but just tension is jarring.

It’s hanging on the C for a full bar after the stop. Doesn’t ever go back to B. Just start the track at the second bar if you want. Your whole point is that it clashes with the B. If I don’t play the B then it’s a regular sus4.

 

[mrblackbat]

It’s hanging on the C for a full bar after the stop. Doesn’t ever go back to B. Just start the track at the second bar if you want. Your whole point is that it clashes with the B. If I don’t play the B then it’s a regular sus4.

But it’s not what I asked you to do. Could you do what I asked?

 

[Zasterz]

Also: you have an A in the bass. Go root position.

What?? That’s a G!

 

[mrblackbat]

It’s hanging on the C for a full bar after the stop. Doesn’t ever go back to B. Just start the track at the second bar if you want. Your whole point is that it clashes with the B. If I don’t play the B then it’s a regular sus4.

You have a B in the left hand. The clash will be there.

 

[mrblackbat]

What?? That’s a G!
View attachment 33105

Sorry misread on the phone with the small screen

 

[Zasterz]

But it’s not what I asked you to do. Could you do what I asked?

I must be a glutton for punishment but fine, here you go. Still doesn’t bother me but— you know what? We don’t have to like the same things! Lol

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid-3

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid-3

 

[mrblackbat]

I must be a glutton for punishment but fine, here you go. Still doesn’t bother me but— you know what? We don’t have to like the same things! Lol

https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628%2Fg13-dont-avoid-3

View: https://soundcloud.com/user-100436628/g13-dont-avoid-3

It's not about liking the same thing - if you saw earlier I said I actually do like the 4th/11th over major and dominant chords.

But in the isolation of itself, you hear that C on top isn't especially pretty, it has some Les Dawson about it. To me it definitely sounds like you played a wrong note.

BUT the reason why the full recording sounds prettier is because of the movement on resolutions of those tensions. Tension on it's own isn't pretty. Consonance on it's own also isn't pretty - it's just a bit boring. Have tension and resolution and things become beautiful. I still very much hear a sus chord with what you played originally, I hear that it wants to go somewhere and me ear tells me the C comes from a prior chord even though it's not played. I get a minor sound, because sus chords are essentially a ii chord, and so I'm hearing a lot of ii-V ii-V ii-V in your original, and wanting it to move on to fully resolve to the root. But that movement and suspension/resolution sounds MUCH better than if you simply play an 11th in a dominant chord. Which I maintain is fairly stinky.

 

[Zasterz]

It's not about liking the same thing - if you saw earlier I said I actually do like the 4th/11th over major and dominant chords.

But in the isolation of itself, you hear that C on top isn't especially pretty, it has some Les Dawson about it.

The reason why the full recording sounds prettier is because of the movement on resolutions of those tensions. Tension on it's own isn't pretty. Consonance on it's own also isn't pretty - it's just a bit boring. Have tension and resolution and things become beautiful.

Except in no case is anyone talking about staying on one thing forever so that’s a bit of a nonstarter. I’m pretty sure no one here was advocating for music without movement lmao.

 

[Zasterz]

And another thing- people absolutely do have different tastes for dissonance just as they do for spice in food. And that’s totally fine- there’s plenty of different music out there for everyone.

 

[mrblackbat]

Except in no case is anyone talking about staying on one thing forever so that’s a bit of a nonstarter. I’m pretty sure no one here was advocating for music without movement lmao.

SIgh.

And we also were talking about dominant 13 chords, which typically don't have an 11th in. But there we go. For instance, a pianist choosing a voicing to comp a dominant 13 chord probably isn't going to add an 11th in their chord. And a great improviser playing a line through a ii7-V13-Imaj13 is very unlikely to resolve a phrase from their ii to their V13 that lands on an 11th, nor are they going to resolve to an 11th on the Imaj13th either.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Except I was not talking about a ♭9 chord, but the interval between the 3rd and 11.


I have used the 11th in block chord voicing as I believe it can sound great, especially when close to the 3rd as mentioned above. It’s all about context rather than rules.

Yes exactly. And there is so much context to be had too.

I’m confused about how this discussion has gone on for so long - we all know that you can make any cluster of notes work with clever writing and scoring.

If you want to nail every note down then write a score and don’t give it to musicians who improvise by definition.

Chord symbols are a guideline to harmonic structure for musicians who are going to bend “rules” , the better the musician the more bent up the rules in favour of the musical direction.

The presence of the 4th / 11th in a top line / melody is almost a non-event and is often only for a moment - tension and release. Different if present for the whole duration of a chord buried in the harmony, but again,; context and writing is everything.

 

[Pete Thomas]

if you saw earlier I said I actually do like the 4th/11th over major and dominant chords.

I think I’m probably misunderstanding and possibly we are talking at cross purposes and I've misconstrued:

But if the chord is a straight up 13 chord, with no other alterations, you’re not going to voice the 11th in any block chord voicings, and typically use it as a passing note only if adhering to conventional harmony.

Agreed if we are talking about conventional harmony as it was in the 30s or 40s but I have to disagree that a clash of 3rd and 11th kind of stinks:

…isolate to just the clashing notes, the third and the 11th in this case.

One of the reasons the clash kind of stinks here is because the third is really what goes the chord it’s identity,

As I said above, my take is that an 11th can be voiced in a 13th (or any dominant) along with the 3rd, but IMO should be voiced right next to the 3rd. This depends on context of genre, I wouldn’t do it in a Glenn Miller tune. Unless it was “Glenn Miller meets Thad Jones”. 🙂

And another thing- people absolutely do have different tastes for dissonance just as they do for spice in food. And that’s totally fine- there’s plenty of different music out there for everyone.

I couldn’t agree more, hence we often treat rules more like guidelines:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omjnIeLIzJc

 

[Zasterz]

The conversation is about the so-called “avoid note” 4 on a dominant 7. Is it really an ugly sound? Well ugly is in the ear of the listener. Here it’s played on several downbeats on a tune not considered particularly dissonant. We should all be glad to be so ugly, imo.

 

[mrblackbat]

Chord symbols are a guideline to harmonic structure for musicians who are going to bend “rules” , the better the musician the more bent up the rules in favour of the musical direction.

They are indeed, but I don't think you'll find many people who will see a G13 and play a C in that chord. If the C is desired, it might get written as a G13 add 11.

 

[mrblackbat]

I couldn’t agree more, hence we often treat rules more like guidelines:

But sometimes, in the context of learners asking questions about things, saying "depends" all the time is unhelpful, and some rules that can later be converted to guidelines are helpful.

 

[Pete Effamy]

They are indeed, but I don't think you'll find many people who will see a G13 and play a C in that chord. If the C is desired, it might get written as a G13 add 11.

I think G13 add 11 is an over-complication that nobody wants to see.

If the 13 falls to a 5th, why wouldn’t you have it harmonised with the 11 falling to the 3rd ? You then get into a sus chord feel. But there are so many ifs and buts it’s crazy unless we talk about it in specific contexts / examples.

 

[Pete Thomas]

They are indeed, but I don't think you'll find many people who will see a G13 and play a C in that chord.

OK but that may be a less common case of people seeing chords as opposed to just improvising (back to the learning vs reading thread!). I tend to think of the more common scenario of improvising based on knowing or just hearing the harmony. There are plentof examples of Charlie Parker playing an 11th on a dominant and not just as a passing note which I think everyone would agree is within the conventional rules.

If the C is desired, it might get written as a G13 add 11.

I don't think I've ever come across that chord symbol, but a quick search shows that many people (and even AI 🙂) thinks it includes the 3rd.

AI Overview

An add11 chord consists of a basic major or minor triad with the 11th (4th) scale degree added, usually voiced without the 7th or 9th to avoid clashing. It is spelled as 1−3−5−111 minus 3 minus 5 minus 11
(e.g., C-E-G-F for Cadd11). These chords are used for added color, often substituted for major chords or to create "washy" modal sounds.

Regarding avoid notes, In my own teaching I don't advise bothering with the concept. It seems to be something coined by Jamey Aebersold and the chord/scale syllabus which as many of you know is something I eschew. (Originally I did buy into the concept when I took over from another jazz theory lecturer at UOS)

I just checked TTS2 and found I'd written this:

Avoid notes
I am only mentioning this because you may have heard people use the term avoid notes in connection with other methods of learning to improvise, e.g the Scale Syllabus. With that method initially you may not actually learn what the chord notes are, or how to use the non-chord notes effectively - hence you are just advised to avoid them. With the method we use here, you don’t need to worry about avoid notes. but it’s worth knowing why the term is sometimes used...
However with the Scale Syllabus, you won’t know what are chord notes, passing notes or suspensions. For this reason beginners are told to avoid certain notes. But in our system they could be called “use with care” notes and hopefully you can use them all to create more melodic and musical solos.

 

[Pete Effamy]

OK but that may be a less common case of people seeing chords as opposed to just improvising (back to the learning vs reading thread!). I tend to think of the more common scenario of improvising based on knowing or just hearing the harmony. There are plentof examples of Charlie Parker playing an 11th on a dominant and not just as a passing note which I think everyone would agree is within the conventional rules.


I don't think I've ever come across that chord symbol, but a quick search shows that many people (and even AI 🙂) thinks it includes the 3rd.



Regarding avoid notes, In my own teaching I don't advise bothering with the concept. It seems to be something coined by Jamey Aebersold and the chord/scale syllabus which as many of you know is something I eschew. (Originally I did buy into the concept when I took over from another jazz theory lecturer at UOS)

I just checked TTS2 and found I'd written this:

I agree.

The Aebersold “avoid note” idea led me to “cross the road” rather than play the 11th over a dominant chord.
But the more you look at transcriptions from the greats the more you see it treated as just another note available to play.