Beginner Sax Do I NEED a vintage American tenor

jthole

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304
Arghh...but how do you know if you haven't tried anything else...;-)

I have, but none of them feels like my Martin ;)

But seriously; I don’t think that a switch to another tenor would make me sound better, especially because I have adjusted to my own tenor over time.
 

thomsax

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If you want a Conn Artist 10M I think you should buy one. Great horns, I have owned and played some. But It was not the right right sax for me. The best mouthpiece for me on my 10M's was a Dukoff LD chamber.

There are no balled saxes. There are no ballad mouthpieces. There are no ballad reeds ...... it's the player that is playing a ballad. The sax, mouthpiece and reeds is just helping you to sound as good as possible.

Play and develop your ballad. A ballad from the beginning is a slow dance song with lyrics. Often sad or with a serious touch. I try to play more ballads these days. It just feels better than playing up-tempo rock songs about drugs.

If you like saxophone ballad listen to Sil Austin. A master when it came to "sub tone". Listen to "Danny Boy" with Sil Austin. Sub tones, heavy vibrato, some note bending (I think) .... . According to John Laughters book "Contemporary Saxophone" Sil Austin was playing a Selmer (SBA or Mk VI guess) with a custom made Otto Link #9 mouthpiece.

Good luck with your 10M. Looking forward to hear some ballads or to talk about blues-, rock-, pop-ballad.
View: https://youtu.be/p5C6tQV05YU
 

eb424

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If you want a Conn Artist 10M I think you should buy one. Great horns, I have owned and played some. But It was not the right right sax for me. The best mouthpiece for me on my 10M's was a Dukoff LD chamber.

There are no balled saxes. There are no ballad mouthpieces. There are no ballad reeds ...... it's the player that is playing a ballad. The sax, mouthpiece and reeds is just helping you to sound as good as possible.

Play and develop your ballad. A ballad from the beginning is a slow dance song with lyrics. Often sad or with a serious touch. I try to play more ballads these days. It just feels better than playing up-tempo rock songs about drugs.

If you like saxophone ballad listen to Sil Austin. A master when it came to "sub tone". Listen to "Danny Boy" with Sil Austin. Sub tones, heavy vibrato, some note bending (I think) .... . According to John Laughters book "Contemporary Saxophone" Sil Austin was playing a Selmer (SBA or Mk VI guess) with a custom made Otto Link #9 mouthpiece.

Good luck with your 10M. Looking forward to hear some ballads or to talk about blues-, rock-, pop-ballad.
View: https://youtu.be/p5C6tQV05YU
Thanks im definately going to...just got to move the alto first....still tempted by a blowout in sweden...
 

Phil

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Life is short. If you can afford it you certainly aren’t harming anyone. Just keep your expectations reasonable so you don’t find yourself on a merry go round. I personally dont care for the Yams anyway. You can certainly sound great in one but other horns talk to me much more. If you have a chance play a tone king or a couf superba. If I were buying a big bore horn they would be at the top of my list.
 

greenstripe

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Life is short. If you can afford it you certainly aren’t harming anyone. Just keep your expectations reasonable so you don’t find yourself on a merry go round. I personally dont care for the Yams anyway. You can certainly sound great in one but other horns talk to me much more. If you have a chance play a tone king or a couf superba. If I were buying a big bore horn they would be at the top of my list.

I must ask my teacher if I can have a play on his Couf Superba to see what all the fuss is about, not that I'd be good enough to do any serious horn justice
 

eb424

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Just out of interest isbthere much difference between a martin committee 1941 and 1947..
 

thomsax

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Just out of interest isbthere much difference between a martin committee 1941 and 1947..
A 1941 Martin Committee is Comm II and a late one. A Committe from 1947 is a "The Martin Tenor". The Comm II has more more focused and more edgy tone/sound. I just have The Martin Tenor from 1955 and 1959. The Martin Tenor have a fatter and less focused. Bigger bell and flare.
 

eb424

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A 1941 Martin Committee is Comm II and a late one. A Committe from 1947 is a "The Martin Tenor". The Comm II has more more focused and more edgy tone/sound. I just have The Martin Tenor from 1955 and 1959. The Martin Tenor have a fatter and less focused. Bigger bell and flare.
Ive never played a martin is a com 11 how edgy is edgy much different than an 82z..?? Are the ergos that difficult.. compared to a 48..
 

Pete Thomas

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American ...Im a bit peeved I moved on a ref 54 because it was to dark
Maybe they just need playing a bit brighter? If your mouthpiece and embouchure are versatile enough. I would not call a ref 54 dark anyway, maybe it wasn’t working too well.
 

eb424

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Maybe they just need playing a bit brighter? If your mouthpiece and embouchure are versatile enough. I would not call a ref 54 dark anyway, maybe it wasn’t working too well.
Not at the time to soon...mate has it now..
 

DavidUK

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Oooh... just spotted a Buescher TH&C for sale...

NB. Perti is not bent on it.

:oops:
 

thomsax

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ve never played a martin is a com 11 how edgy is edgy much different than an 82z..?? Are the ergos that difficult.. compared to a 48..
I don't know how to explain ... a focus/edgy on a sax how the sax is built. And played. Martin saxes are known for having nice low tones. But doesn't mean that they are dark. It's just easier to play the low tones on a Martin compared to other saxes. The ergos on a Comm II and The Martin Tenor are petty much the same. The built quality on a Comm II used to be better. Solid nickel silver keys. Bright or dark. I just change mouthpiece.
I disagree. I’ve had a couple and both were basically quite bright, but of course able to be fatter
I think a Comm II is more "brittle, cutting, focused" compared to a "The Martin Tenor".

Here is a 1959 "The Martin Tenor" side by side with a 1938 Martin Committee (Martin already made the Comm II in 1938, so it's a Comm II without the Comm II key gaurds and engraving). The flair the and last part of the bell is bigger on The Martin Tenor (Comm III c 158 mm/Comm II c 144 mm). The Martin Tenor is also shorter compared to Comm II. I guess the combined neck on The Martin tenor is the reason. A The Martin Martin neck is also longer.

I also took out a 1968 "The Newking" (Keilwerth). Here you can clearly see the differences. The flair is 169 mm and the bow is wider. 48 mm and 31 mm on both Comm II and Comm III. The neck is also longer compared to Comm III. Maybe a Keilwerth with wide bow is a better sax if you want a darker sound, as Phil already pointed out. A Keilwerth SX 90?

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JayeNM

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This thread is beginning to unfocus, a bit. @eb424 you are asking folks about Conn, Martin, now Buescher has just come up; and you now have noted that there's such a thing to your ears as 'too dark'.....so we may be starting to get into subjectivity here, and oftentimes that can just confuse things more than clarify....

IMHO, and although this is a generalization I believe it holds true....all of the vintage major models are darker toned than 90% of any contemporary horn, exceptions being maybe a Ref 54, Keilwerth, then the boutique Italian brands.

Doesn't matter which model....6M/10m, Committee, 'Crat, 400, S20, Zephyr.
If your definition of 'Dark' means the low and low-midrange tones/harmonics are more prevalent when compared to a modern horn.

I would not consider a Comm 3 'bright' by any means... when put up against a contemporary Yamaha, SA80, Yani for example.
It might be perceived to be 'brighter' vs. some other vintage Americans, however.

At this point you are just sorta asking folks 'which is darker ?'...going on their perceptions and already there's some contradictory opinion in the replies.

Not certain how much you are gonna just 'cross off' models on your Vintage List based on the replies of people on a Forum.

A better methodology would be to try to hunt down a few vintage models and playtest them. You don't necessarily need to try four or six, I believe it will become apparent to you the tonality signatures of the older horns after trying only a couple. You already know what a 10M sounds like so you have a 'base' - albeit from memory - to go off of. And I'd honestly say ANY name-brand vintage model is worth a blow...doesn't have to be the top-shelfers of the old Big 4.
Beaugnier (Vito/Noblet), a vintage JK, Grassi for example are some others out there, and a second-shelfer like Martin Indiana or even a King Cleveland or Conn 16M are going to have the tonal attributes which you seem interested in as well.
 
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JayeNM

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PS ~ it's not quite as simple as looking at the tube/body attributes of a horn correlating to bright vs. dark. The bores/geometries do not necessarily correlate that way. I have played 'short neck', 'normal bore' horns which were quite dark, for example.
And JK changed their bows quite a bit over time, sometimes they were on the large side, sometimes not, sometimes they had a wide curvature, sometimes not...but they are always dark-toned horns.
I have played horns with pretty skinny neck tubes (Beaugnier comes to mind) which were pretty dark, and 'fat' looking necktubes which were pretty bright....
 

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