Beginner Sax Do I NEED a vintage American tenor

Stephen Howard

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The bottom line.

If your subtone is crap on a modern horn, it'll be crap on a vintage horn.
Oh, it might be easier - but don't make the mistake of trading ease for crispness. If I had a quid for every client that produced a woolly, indeterminate subtone on a vintage horn I'd be able to retire to somewhere warm.

So no, you don't need a vintage horn - you just need to spend less time on the internet and more time really getting to know the ins and outs of your horn and your setup.

Yeah, it's harsh - but it's fair. There's too much of a tendency these days to encourage 'magic bullet' spending, when all that's really needed is some old-fashioned woodshedding.
Get on with it...because YOU CAN DO IT.
.
 

eb424

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The bottom line.

If your subtone is crap on a modern horn, it'll be crap on a vintage horn.
Oh, it might be easier - but don't make the mistake of trading ease for crispness. If I had a quid for every client that produced a woolly, indeterminate subtone on a vintage horn I'd be able to retire to somewhere warm.

So no, you don't need a vintage horn - you just need to spend less time on the internet and more time really getting to know the ins and outs of your horn and your setup.

Yeah, it's harsh - but it's fair. There's too much of a tendency these days to encourage 'magic bullet' spending, when all that's really needed is some old-fashioned woodshedding.
Get on with it...because YOU CAN DO IT.
.
Hi Thanks @Stephen Howard I was trying to go along the theme of are some saxes better suited to certain genres than others and would a 10m or suchlike be more soulful on ballads...think my reference to " NEEDING a vintage was a bit tongue in cheek...maybe just a reed thing..hard using cane in a caravan and also the sound is probably more like playing outside..thanks for the kind words tho...lol..true tho they are..
 
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thomsax

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No doubt about it @thomsax definately for rock just not so sure bout the slow whispy ballads..
It not so much about the sax, mpc ....... it's what you want to play. Mouthpieces and saxes just helps up. Listen to this slow (ballad) solo, It's Joe Sublett that is playing a nice solo. I think Sublett is on a relative modern sax and a baffled metal mouthpiece. It's not about the sax.

The solo starts around 2:30.
View: https://youtu.be/IzMQoHHMNMc
 

spike

Old Indian
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Half way up a hill
For what it's worth - Ten Years ago Joe wrote this about his setup on the other channel:

I'm using a Phil Barone LEH metal mouthpiece which, I think, is somewhere between 7.5 and 8. It is darker than my last 8 star Barone piece. Less baffle, more like the old Otto Links. Still using the Mark VI. Recently discovered Rigotti Gold reeds. Really like them. Old Conn 12M Bari (otto Link 8 star) and Yanigasawa Soprano.
 

Phil

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If I recall you gravitate towards bright, edgy and baffled mouthpieces. If this is the case I can say they would not be my choice for ballads and subbing. It can be done but there are better choices IMHO.
 

jazzdoh

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I think Eddie you are looking at this totally wrong, the Yamaha 82 is just as capable of playing great ballads as the 10m is.

He is a video of a demo of the 82.

View: https://youtu.be/0IgHVhGkiAQ



Now if you want a vintage horn just go and get one, as I have said before many players have collections of instruments but if you are playing vintage and modern horns be prepared for a lot of work moving between them.
 

eb424

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If I recall you gravitate towards bright, edgy and baffled mouthpieces. If this is the case I can say they would not be my choice for ballads and subbing. It can be done but there are better choices IMHO.
Hi thanks @Phil..even with the jz and a c1 neck its still quite punchy...I do have to play with a legere sig 2 sounds better ( mellower) than 2.25..
 

ellinas

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Athens, Greece
If your subtone is crap on a modern horn, it'll be crap on a vintage horn.
Oh, it might be easier - but don't make the mistake of trading ease for crispness. If I had a quid for every client that produced a woolly, indeterminate subtone on a vintage horn I'd be able to retire to somewhere warm.

So no, you don't need a vintage horn - you just need to spend less time on the internet and more time really getting to know the ins and outs of your horn and your setup.

Yeah, it's harsh - but it's fair. There's too much of a tendency these days to encourage 'magic bullet' spending, when all that's really needed is some old-fashioned woodshedding.
Get on with it...because YOU CAN DO IT.
100% right!
 

Dr G

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767
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Northern California
You'll eventually buy enough horns to learn that you can no longer blame your sound on the horn.

I don't know your mouthpiece, so that could be working against you.

How you handle air matters. Subtoning is not just about not playing loud, you still need good air support.

Affirmation: Yes, by all means, get a vintage horn. And then, having that sound in your head, go for that sound through any other horn. Yes, gear can help in some situations, but the greatest usual obstacle is the thing hanging off the end of the horn.
 

eb424

Senior Member
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london
You'll eventually buy enough horns to learn that you can no longer blame your sound on the horn.

I don't know your mouthpiece, so that could be working against you.

How you handle air matters. Subtoning is not just about not playing loud, you still need good air support.

Affirmation: Yes, by all means, get a vintage horn. And then, having that sound in your head, go for that sound through any other horn. Yes, gear can help in some situations, but the greatest usual obstacle is the thing hanging off the end of the horn.
Tbf i only have 1alto and 1 tenor..Im playing a dark set up c1 neck and phil tone jz baffleless large chamber hr piece..the only thing i havent been ablevto change is the reed...Im playing legeres as cane doesn't hold up in the caravan..changing should make some difference..
 

Dr G

Member
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Tbf i only have 1alto and 1 tenor..Im playing a dark set up c1 neck and phil tone jz baffleless large chamber hr piece..the only thing i havent been ablevto change is the reed...Im playing legeres as cane doesn't hold up in the caravan..changing should make some difference..

The JZ has a rollover baffle and a medium chamber, very much like an Otto Link STM, and should be great for what you want to do. Once you have reed strength dialed in to play the full range of the instrument, the rest is on you. Subtoning is about air support and embouchure. You shouldn't need to change reeds to play a ballad with subtone.
 

LostCircuits

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Black Forest
There is no question that you need a vintage horn. It's the sax equivalent of a hole in the head. (coming from someone who almost exclusively plays vintage horns)

In all honesty, though, there is a difference between need and need even if they are spelled the same way. Playing different horns, will often expose some of your own weaknesses and show you a way to overcome them not just on that specific instrument but also on the other one where it may not have been that obvious. But you may spend your money on a teacher even though the resale value is non-existent.
 

lydian

Member
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485
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USA
There is no question that you need a vintage horn. It's the sax equivalent of a hole in the head. (coming from someone who almost exclusively plays vintage horns)

In all honesty, though, there is a difference between need and need even if they are spelled the same way. Playing different horns, will often expose some of your own weaknesses and show you a way to overcome them not just on that specific instrument but also on the other one where it may not have been that obvious. But you may spend your money on a teacher even though the resale value is non-existent.
How did most of the greats of the past manage to play beautiful ballads without an American vintage horn? And how to the greats of today play beautiful ballads on modern horns? If they could do it, surely eb424 can do it.
 

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