DiscourtesyDemotivation :(

[Rogerb]

Just need to vent.....

I went to listen to a small jazz combo at lunchtime today... the leader is a friend of my teacher, who sometimes plays with him, and a really nice fella.

I was enjoying their playing and I complimented the sax-player and added I was a beginner of less than 2 years.

He asked what book I was using, and raised his eyebrows saying "Still on that after 2 years?", which made me feel really good (not) ..... very encouraging to one who's struggling along, from someone who's never heard me play 😡

I told him how I felt about this comment, and he said with a touch of sarcasm "Oh, I'm sorry, I won't talk to you again!"

After the gig, I assumed the leader had 'had a word', because he apologised, but then spoilt it by saying that, if I talk to pro musicians, I must expect it.

I just said that I'm usually up for a bit of a leg-pull but don't like what I regard as plain discourtesy.

The thing is, the original comment wasn't that bad, just a bit insensitive, but what p155ed me orf was his inability just to say something like "I'm sorry it upset you..it wasn't intended to" without making it my fault 🙁

Some of us struggling beginners are delicate little flowers, easily crushed 😱

(I just came home and did some serious practice 🙂 )

 

[Col9]

Its a shame people get good and take it for granted, without a thought to where they came from or how they got to the standard they are at.

It takes as long as it takes, what's the rush?

Col.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Rogerb wrote:
After the gig, I assumed the leader had 'had a word', because he apologised, but then spoilt it by saying that, if I talk to pro musicians, I must expect it.

That's tosh.

Here's a story:

Many years ago there was a young up and coming tenor player that I used to teach a bit and get to sit in with my band. He came to see Lee Allen playing with the Blasters and he was quite in awe of Lee. After the gig Lee was surrounded by a few lovely young ladies that he was enjoying the company of, but I mentioned there was a very keen young saxophone player who'd love to meet him. Lee went over and had a long chat with him, giving him encouragement and advice.

That's more of a "pro musician" to my mind. (And the your sax player, Ray gelato, went on to do well for himself).

 

[Rogerb]

Yes, Pete, I have met enough pros, albeit not, in most cases, particularly famous ones, to know that this is rarely the case.

They are, of course, often great wind-up merchants, and constantly taking the p out of each other... but that's quite different.

 

[mfox]

BOB there is a recognised medical condition called "UP HIS OWN ARSE" to describe his rudess..
so what if your on the same book for 2 years, if your enjoying it that all that matters..the guy was obviously socially handicapped

 

[Rogerb]

Thanks, guys.... I did think I might have been a bit thin-skinned :S

Another time I'd probably have said nothing, and kept my p155ed-offness to myself, but I just thought "wt* should he go away thinking it was OK?".

I'm over it now.

Actually we use 2 books and pick from them what 'teacher' thinks is appropriate... but as he said when I started "Don't get frustrated if you don't progress as fast as you'd hoped/expected.... you'll go as fast as you go!"

No doubt if one can spend 4hrs/day on practice (as this guy claimed to have done), without divorce or knackered lips, I could've progressed faster, but I found it's a lot to try to learn Japanese and to work in a Tokyo restaurant..... (a poor analogy to learning to read music and play sax all in one go 😱 ) )

 

[RedBottom]

Roger, does the guy have a website or a MySpace page or anything? You could go along there (actually, we all could) and leave a sarky comment for everyone to read. It would only be there for as long as it takes him to find it and delete it, but certainly someone would get to read it and you would at least have told him what you think.

Actually, I never fail to be amazed at the number of 'real' pro players who tend to ignore you until they know you play the sax. Fifteen minutes later, you become aware of their mates waiting behind them, frustratedly tapping feet and looking at watches because they really need to get to get going and their sax player is busy waffling on to you about mouthpieces and ligatures. :whistle:

 

[Bobby G]

I've met quite a few pro musicians over the years, and mostly they are very encouraging, although the odd one here and there are decidedly up themselves. Going back to my days as a struggling (but with a small-label deal) bassist in a noo-wave band in 77-8 we were support band to a number of more well-known bands. Now, on this list, who would you imagine to be the most arrogant or up-themselves of the lot? Here goes - the Stranglers, Generation X (with young Billy Idol), Ultravox (pre-Midge Oo-er), Gary Numan and his Tubeway Army, XTC, Adam Ant and his Ants, The Soft Boys (featuring Kimberley Rew out of Katrina and the Waves, as well as Robyn 'Syd' Hytchcyck) and Johnny Thunders & the Heartbreakers. And who the most friendly and helpful? Points will be awarded for correct answers, and as you know points means prizes.

I think that thirty years on names could be named without causing too much upset...

In general though, I would say that jazzers (and for that matter, the solo-type folkies or singer-songwriters) are a bit more encouraging than the rock fraternity; possibly, and this is only a theory, due to rock being a more pressured, fashion- and market-driven, transient kind of business which can give rise to inflated egos born of insecurity.

 

[frankb]

mfox wrote:
BOB there is a recognised medical condition called "UP HIS OWN ARSE" to describe his rudess..

Yep, I second the diagnosis. I believe the Latin name for the condition is Arrogantis Tosserosis. There is a treatment, which consists of being whacked vigorously and repeatedly upside the head, however this individual sounds like a terminal case...!

Some people make themselves feel big by trying to make others look small. Real professionals (in any field) don't need to do this and are usually both gracious and helpful.

 

[Rogerb]

What a nice, supportive lot you are 🙂

I shall be interested to hear my teacher's opinion of the guy on Tuesday.

In the past, I might have let his first comment go, and gone off feeling irritated at his discourtesy.
However, I do think one should sometimes face-up to such people, and tell 'em that their remarks are not appreciated...although, by doing so you do risk getting more of the same, as was the case this time.

We all unwittingly make thoughtless/tactless/hurtful remarks at times, but if they are pointed-out to us, most would apologise and hope the apology is accepted graciously.

Some people, however, just don't know how to make or accept apologies with good grace. 🙁

 

[Bobby G]

Going back to Allegro soon, Roger? 😉

 

[Rogerb]

Yeah, Bob, I'm beginning to sound like someone who invites rudeness :whistle:

I have to say that the Allegro guy wasn't, IMO, rude/discourteous, but rather pompous and overbearingly opinionated, so I didn't take it personally...I just thought "What a prat!" 😉

If they were the only people in my area who had something I wanted I would go there for it. They were good about letting me try lots of very expensive hardware.

Actually, unprovoked discourtesy is one of the few things which I find almost always winds me up (another is vandalism).... most of the time I'm quite easy-going 🙂

 

[Simon]

Hi Roger

Yeah it's a shame when you get this from fellow musicians, pros or not. I think it says more about him and where he's at, than anything else. 'Pros' in particular can be pretty insecure people, especially given that it's a competitive environment out there with less and less work around.

As an amateur player (which is how I regard myself), I get to play the music I like and meet up and jam with like-minded mates - its fun leisure with some practice adding the 'musical brain challenge'.

Plus you enjoy the progress you make cos it occurs more frequently!

Simon

Rogerb wrote:
Just need to vent.....

I went to listen to a small jazz combo at lunchtime today... the leader is a friend of my teacher, who sometimes plays with him, and a really nice fella.

I was enjoying their playing and I complimented the sax-player and added I was a beginner of less than 2 years.

He asked what book I was using, and raised his eyebrows saying "Still on that after 2 years?", which made me feel really good (not) ..... very encouraging to one who's struggling along, from someone who's never heard me play 😡

I told him how I felt about this comment, and he said with a touch of sarcasm "Oh, I'm sorry, I won't talk to you again!"

After the gig, I assumed the leader had 'had a word', because he apologised, but then spoilt it by saying that, if I talk to pro musicians, I must expect it.

I just said that I'm usually up for a bit of a leg-pull but don't like what I regard as plain discourtesy.

The thing is, the original comment wasn't that bad, just a bit insensitive, but what p155ed me orf was his inability just to say something like "I'm sorry it upset you..it wasn't intended to" without making it my fault 🙁

Some of us struggling beginners are delicate little flowers, easily crushed 😱

(I just came home and did some serious practice 🙂 )

 

[philthd]

Bobby G wrote:
Now, on this list, who would you imagine to be the most arrogant or up-themselves of the lot? Here goes - the Stranglers, Generation X, Ultravox, Gary Numan and his Tubeway Army, XTC, Adam Ant and his Ants, The Soft Boys and Johnny Thunders & the Heartbreakers. And who the most friendly and helpful? Points will be awarded for correct answers, and as you know points means prizes.

i would love to think that all those people were really nice in casual conversation - but fear i may be disappointed with the answers on this test. surely billy idol's lovely though? (and the irony is that his generation dont mean a thing to me)

 

[Rogerb]

My teacher said "Oh him...he's always been a nasty piece of work.... thinks he advances himself by putting others down!
And he started playing at about 15, so was able to practice for hours, while Mum did his cooking and washing, etc!"

He also said he never hires such nasty people...however well they play... as there are enough nice ones around 🙂

It was nice to have my judgement supported!

 

[peter_fitton]

Rogerb wrote:


I have to say that the Allegro guy wasn't, IMO, rude/discourteous, but rather pompous and overbearingly opinionated, so I didn't take it personally...I just thought "What a prat!" 😉

There are few things worse than someone who is pompous and overbearingly opinionated is there? And I know because I have a tendency to be like that myself every now and again :cry: for example my contributions to the "what are you listening to right now?" thread >.<

It's not big or clever and nobody's impressed. So why do we do it ? Boo hoo

Peter

 

[Rogerb]

I am going to listen to the same band at lunchtime today, (and to one my teacher plays in tonight), and I'll not be talking to the tenor player!

I've possibly listened to more live bands, here in Spain, than I did before I came 3.5 yrs ago!!

 

[tengu01]

Hey there Roger,

He was definately a bit of an a r s e. I am sure he wasn't born playing sax. The majority of horn players I have met haven't been that stupidly discouraging but you seem to have been un(lucky) with that one.

Everyone gets there in their own time.

On the flip side, I have to admit, meeting the occasional to ss er has definately improved my drive to improve but I don't think you're being thin-skinned. You meet people like that who forget what it is to be a beginner/learner.

Just keep pushing on 🙂

 

[mick_wilson]

Hi Roger Cant beleive someone would do that it makes me worry now when I talk amongst friends about me playing sax 😡 ask yourself this what makes a pro? lets think about

..Is it someone that can play fantastically well and learns everything you throw at them in a week?

...Is it someone who plays well and boasts that he is the best player around?

No a real pro is someone like our Pete Thomas here and many of the other guys in this forum that knows their way around a Sax but rather than boast about it and laugh at some of the obvious begginer comments they spend time and help wherever they can. giving support just like they got when they started out. I thought I was alone when I bought my Sax and then i found this site..

im my eyes these guys are pros.

what book are you on also? as i have been at it for about 2 weeks .I have the absolute beginners book wioth cd and a dvd called Alto sax today. i have completed the dvd and now half way through the book but i must say i can only manage about 25 minutes and i lose my ebouchure
🙁 🙁

if someone has to boast about how good they are...............are they?

mick wilson.

 

[Bobby G]

That's right Mick - there's nothing wrong with being confident about your abilities if you have them, but if it's boastful or you put yourself above others just because you are further along the road, then, nah.

To me, the most important thing is the love of playing whatever level you are; I'm totally self-taught but have a background of playing since I was a kid (piano and guitars) but I do like to help and encourage others if I can, and I'm humble enough to accept constructive criticism or to be put right if I'm way off beam.

Having said that I'd make a lousy teacher even if I had more formal training myself!