All profit supporting special needs music education and Help Musicians

Covid-related questions for members who play in orchestras/bands ...

Nick Wyver

noisy
Café Supporter
Messages
6,070
Locality
Minster On Sea

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Café Supporter
Messages
21,927
Locality
Just north of Munich
Well breathing means wear a mask around others. So still dangerous.
Haven't played in orchestra since this started, and won't.
 

lydian

Member
Messages
64
Locality
USA
Looks like a seriously flawed study to me. The picture shows that they think they only have to worry about what comes out of the end. The aerosol comes out of the corners of the sax player's mouth where the reed meets the curve of the facing. If the light is just right, I can see a fine mist constantly streaming out as I play. I also see tiny droplets all over my horn and streaks of saliva on my mouthpiece when I'm done playing. That doesn't even count whatever comes out of every open tone hole. These researchers are morons.

Back before a vaccine was available, a friend of mine was in a big band where it was apparently the piano player who spread Covid to every single band member in the course of one rehearsal. The band's singer ultimately died of Covid. So it didn't matter what kind of instrument was being played. It was the close quarters that got them.

Having said that, I regularly play in 4 bands again, just like I did before Covid. Getting vaccinated is the best safety measure we can practically take and still rehearse and gig. Bell covers and the like are completely useless on sax. I don't trust that study one bit since they apparently don't even know how wind instruments work.
 

John Setchell

Member
Messages
283
Locality
Norfolk UK
Interesting.
This thread was started in September, and here in UK things have changed a lot since then. Our Glorious Leader (Boris) has basically told us to get vaccinated and use common sense.
For a couple of months I have been jamming once a week with a guitarist band member to backing tracks in his huge lounge - we’re about 10 metres apart! We’re both still fit & well.
We have arranged to resume band rehearsals in a community hall once a month starting in January. I suspect that we’ll be at least 3m apart; not share microphones; have had 2 or 3 jabs; and leave a couple of windows open.
During lockdown some local bands have broken up, and it seems that many venues are not now planning to host live music. Difficult times…
 

Nick Wyver

noisy
Café Supporter
Messages
6,070
Locality
Minster On Sea
Looks like a seriously flawed study to me. The picture shows that they think they only have to worry about what comes out of the end. The aerosol comes out of the corners of the sax player's mouth where the reed meets the curve of the facing. If the light is just right, I can see a fine mist constantly streaming out as I play. I also see tiny droplets all over my horn and streaks of saliva on my mouthpiece when I'm done playing. That doesn't even count whatever comes out of every open tone hole. These researchers are morons.

Back before a vaccine was available, a friend of mine was in a big band where it was apparently the piano player who spread Covid to every single band member in the course of one rehearsal. The band's singer ultimately died of Covid. So it didn't matter what kind of instrument was being played. It was the close quarters that got them.

Having said that, I regularly play in 4 bands again, just like I did before Covid. Getting vaccinated is the best safety measure we can practically take and still rehearse and gig. Bell covers and the like are completely useless on sax. I don't trust that study one bit since they apparently don't even know how wind instruments work.
I trust you read the whole of the original paper before you decided the researchers were morons.
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,776
Locality
Betelgeuse
Looks like a seriously flawed study to me. The picture shows that they think they only have to worry about what comes out of the end. The aerosol comes out of the corners of the sax player's mouth where the reed meets the curve of the facing. If the light is just right, I can see a fine mist constantly streaming out as I play. I also see tiny droplets all over my horn and streaks of saliva on my mouthpiece when I'm done playing. That doesn't even count whatever comes out of every open tone hole. These researchers are morons.

Back before a vaccine was available, a friend of mine was in a big band where it was apparently the piano player who spread Covid to every single band member in the course of one rehearsal. The band's singer ultimately died of Covid. So it didn't matter what kind of instrument was being played. It was the close quarters that got them.

Having said that, I regularly play in 4 bands again, just like I did before Covid. Getting vaccinated is the best safety measure we can practically take and still rehearse and gig. Bell covers and the like are completely useless on sax. I don't trust that study one bit since they apparently don't even know how wind instruments work.
I don't think it's posible to determine the validity of a study of droplet production by looking at a single image of a single musician, and I think asserting that the researchers are morons is a bit harsh. The picture doesn't actually show that they're collection samples from just the end of the recorder anyway, it's a funnel which is sampling air projected more widely in front of the player. The published article is a summary of the study, not the full study with methodology set out. It was undertaken by some individuals at pretty dependable research organisations.

I worked for years in a scientific research organisation, although I have no connection with this study. I know that while disease epidemiology can tell us much about the population-wide effects of a disease, it is virtually impossible in an epidemic or pandemic to determine just which typhoid Mary infects specific individuals. So I doubt whether it's possible to know that it was the piano player who infected the band. The trgic consequences could have been a result of transmission from another party, possibly an asymptomatic spreader who at the time had no idea he or she had COVID-19.
 

lydian

Member
Messages
64
Locality
USA
I don't think it's posible to determine the validity of a study of droplet production by looking at a single image of a single musician, and I think asserting that the researchers are morons is a bit harsh. The picture doesn't actually show that they're collection samples from just the end of the recorder anyway, it's a funnel which is sampling air projected more widely in front of the player. The published article is a summary of the study, not the full study with methodology set out. It was undertaken by some individuals at pretty dependable research organisations.

I worked for years in a scientific research organisation, although I have no connection with this study. I know that while disease epidemiology can tell us much about the population-wide effects of a disease, it is virtually impossible in an epidemic or pandemic to determine just which typhoid Mary infects specific individuals. So I doubt whether it's possible to know that it was the piano player who infected the band. The trgic consequences could have been a result of transmission from another party, possibly an asymptomatic spreader who at the time had no idea he or she had COVID-19.
Well, the piano player was sick but came to rehearsal anyway. Everybody else was fine. So unless multiple asymptomatic people also spread it at the same time, it's pretty safe to say it was the piano player. He feels tremendous guilt, and rightly so. It's a very sad situation all around.

I only have the summary to judge, and from what I see there, the researchers have no clue. They may be great scientists, but they lack basic musical knowledge. Only a complete novice would assume all the air only comes from the bell. They should be collecting from around the mouth and all the holes. A funnel several cm away will not collect everything. Aerosol from the mouth spreads away from the funnel as does the air coming from each hole. The study apparently did not even include the saxophone. I can tell you from direct experience, I emit far more aerosol when playing sax than when speaking/breathing. I would say it's equivalent to a continuous sneeze, though at a much lower velocity, hence would not spread nearly as far as a sneeze. Since their conclusion doesn't match my direct experience, which is 100% repeatable by the way, then they did something wrong, and it's obvious from the summary and the picture. If you choose to trust this study, that's your business. I do not trust it at all and will continue to take extra precautions.
 

Veggie Dave

Sax Worker
Messages
3,425
Locality
Citizen of Nowhere
If the light is just right, I can see a fine mist constantly streaming out as I play. I also see tiny droplets all over my horn and streaks of saliva on my mouthpiece when I'm done playing.

Is it just me or is this not remotely normal?
 

Ivan

Undecided
Café Supporter
Messages
7,907
Locality
Peeblesshire
it didn't matter what kind of instrument was being played. It was the close quarters that got them.
You are supporting the results of the research with this common sense observation

People in close contact pass on viruses

All of that is real. Fanciful claims about a miasma issuing from in and around saxophones is not real
 

nigeld

Too many mouthpieces
Café Supporter
Messages
7,407
Locality
Bristol, UK
These researchers are morons.

I only have the summary to judge, and from what I see there, the researchers have no clue. They may be great scientists, but they lack basic musical knowledge. Only a complete novice would assume all the air only comes from the bell.
@lydian - To be frank, since you have not bothered to read the paper, it is you that has no clue. Your criticism may be valid, but we don't actually know if it is.

Calling people morons just because you disagree with what you think they might possibly have said is rude and unfair.
 

lydian

Member
Messages
64
Locality
USA
You are supporting the results of the research with this common sense observation

People in close contact pass on viruses

All of that is real. Fanciful claims about a miasma issuing from in and around saxophones is not real
It’s very real. I’ve seen the evidence on my horn every day of the 40 plus years I’ve been playing.
 

lydian

Member
Messages
64
Locality
USA
@lydian - To be frank, since you have not bothered to read the paper, it is you that has no clue. Your criticism may be valid, but we don't actually know if it is.

Calling people morons just because you disagree with what you think they might possibly have said is rude and unfair.
How exactly do I read the whole study? If you have any evidence contrary to what I’ve posted, please post it. The picture I saw is something a person would do in an attempt to prove their mistaken belief that air only comes out the end of a wind instrument.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Café Supporter
Messages
21,927
Locality
Just north of Munich
The only COVID case in our orchestra was a brass player. He recovered without problems. But I've not played since the transmission process was known.
 

nigeld

Too many mouthpieces
Café Supporter
Messages
7,407
Locality
Bristol, UK
How exactly do I read the whole study? If you have any evidence contrary to what I’ve posted, please post it.
My point is that if you cannot read the whole study, then it would be better not to express an opinion about it, rather than telling us that it is rubbish and its authors are morons. .
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,776
Locality
Betelgeuse
Couple of final points from me. One individual in a group can never be certain they have infected another - it could have been them, it could have been someone else. Beating someone up, or allowing them to beat themselves up for thinking they may have infected someone else is neither fair nor helpful.

It's a study, not a mandate for changing behaviour. I found it interesting but I still take reasonable precautions, I wear a mask in close proximity to others (which is to protect others from me, not to protect me from others - that's how society works), I have had two stage vaccination plus a booster. I have worked for the NHS throughout COVID19, facing an elevated risk as a result. We all take whatever reasonable steps we can to minimise risk while doing our jobs.
 

lydian

Member
Messages
64
Locality
USA
Hi @lydian

Thank you for providing your insight, without reading the paper

The study is here https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2021.1947470
Thanks. I read the study. My conclusion. Still morons. Here's how they sampled, quoting the study, "For instrument playing, participants positioned their instrument such that the end or bell was inside the funnel. A second sampling funnel was positioned in front of the participant’s mouth for the flute and piccolo instruments only to sample aerosol emitted from the mouth but not directed into the musical instrument." Just as the picture in the article indicated, very poor collection methodology.

So no sampling around the sax player's mouth/mouthpiece, no sampling from the open tone holes. That's a deeply flawed study. I've attached 2 pictures, one of my bari before a 2 hour rehearsal, and another after. The droplets are numerous and obvious. They extend at least half a meter down the length of the instrument and would have been completely missed by a small collection funnel at the bell. This is 100% repeatable for me and all my fellow sax players in the section.

IMG_2995.jpg


IMG_2994.jpg
 

Members online

Popular Discussions

London
Paris
New York
Los Angeles
Sydney
Moscow
New Delhi
Top Bottom