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Saxophones Courtney Pine’s MK VI for sale at Hanson’s

Keep Blowing

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I think it’s quite clear from my examples. Music does have parameters of style and it demands that players stay largely within them. Straying too far is wrong.
If playing a style where parameters of style are either blurred, very wide or non-existent - then the player can be experimental if they so wish.
It's still just your opinion, there are no demands in Jazz, that's my opinion.

A real example of something he did that was so wrong would be helpful
 

Pete Effamy

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It's still just your opinion, there are no demands in Jazz, that's my opinion.

A real example of something he did that was so wrong would be helpful
My examples were not jazz. But another example might be a free-jazz player in a trad jazz band. There are rules of style in music.
 

Keep Blowing

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My examples were not jazz. But another example might be a free-jazz player in a trad jazz band. There are rules of style in music.
You were commenting on Courtney Pine,. Can you post an example of what you think he did that was so wrong?
 

Zugzwang

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Ok, so if Coltrane does his thing in a Rock n Roll band - that’s ok?
Of course it’s okay! It’s also okay for the audience to shout abuse at the band if the spirit moves them. (Though said by someone who, when they first saw The Blues Brothers, thought “Playing behind a cage for protection, brilliant idea!”
…Have had many things thrown at me in my time…)
 

Pete Effamy

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Of course it’s okay! It’s also okay for the audience to shout abuse at the band if the spirit moves them. (Though said by someone who, when they first saw The Blues Brothers, thought “Playing behind a cage for protection, brilliant idea!”
…Have had many things thrown at me in my time…)
Ok. Perhaps you can conduct an experiment. Next time you play in a Blues or Rock n Roll band, play all your solos over Coltrane changes. I'd like to know if you get lynched or just sacked.
 

Clivey

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It`s all about Diction,Expectation blah. Crossing genres basically offends the devotees of all the genres concerned. It`s kinda inverse snobbery but the result is almost 100% a negative one.. It`s a sad sad mentality that we seem to pick up at around 15 -18 years of age.
Folks that play music should always be aware that the people out there are ruthlessly loyal to their ThanG.
Now if you want to be thought provoking and dangerously arty then be it on your own head, reputation and pocket, "You might just make it huge" LeoP, for example P`s off many folks.
If you want to at least cover expenses and perhaps a bit more then compliance is pretty well essential.
Us amateur players are in the very enviable position of having absolutely nothing to fear barring ridicule , Not so the likes of Mr Pine and Mr P
 

Pete Effamy

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Leo P is an interesting one. Firstly, he has some serious skills on a saxophone! He also seems to play in genres which can handle his playing i.e. Mingus. No complaints from me on him, though I don't want to see him at a Gerry Mulligan tribute.
 

Zugzwang

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Ok. Perhaps you can conduct an experiment. Next time you play in a Blues or Rock n Roll band, play all your solos over Coltrane changes. I'd like to know if you get lynched or just sacked.
Oh, sorry I wasn't addressing any mis-match between bandmates, only the idea of "right" and "not permissible'' music - I believe the agreement is between audience and band/group/orchestra. The musicians give it their best shot for the audience's pleasure.... if the audience doesn't like it, that's their perogative. (It's also why I hate eat while you listen venues... was once bought a £12 steak sandwich at Ronnie Scott's, at a time when I was paying £6 a week rent for my flat. Just about made me weep to have my attention split like that)
btw if the band was already playing er ... standard jazz chords (isn't that what you need to play Coltrane changes?), I wouldn't call them a Blues or Rock n Roll band anyway .....yes/no?
 
OP
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sizzzzler

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This conversation is getting a bit stuck. Play what works. We are all different and bring our history of listening, playing and imagination to a solo.
 

Pete Effamy

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That was one of those British “Oh sorry” which means You misunderstood me… though on reflection, that seems rude to @Pete Effamy , for whom I have great respect, so now I really am sorry :confused2:
Nice of you to say, but as @Keep Blowing said, absolutely nothing to apologise for and it wasn't at all disrespectful.

I appreciate the flip side of the argument, not suppressing creativity from the individual. My side of the argument comes from the belief that most of the time as players we are in a situation with a job that is laid out for us and we should bear this (humbly) in mind. With almost all music there needs to be a degree of conformity or it becomes something else, something that it was not billed as.

Classical musicians have the greatest obligation to conform. Within 5% or 10% you make the same sound as everyone else and play as everyone has done before. That's the joy and challenge of it. You re-create with respect to the composer, the genre and the listener who has come along knowing that they will hear what they want to hear.

Other forms of music demand less conformity, probably far less. I have no idea what a concert of 0% conformity would look or sound like. Perhaps it wouldn't even be in the venue advertised! But that's all in musical taste, and I'm certainly not criticising that.

Often non-conformity leads to a new style or re-defining of a style. This usually requires that the other instrumentalists adapt their playing too, otherwise there is a maverick sound within the band that doesn't fit, unless the level of un-conformity is handled in a clever way and hasn't merely gone off on a tangent.

For me, music is my master and my employer. Occasionally in the studio, I am the creator and master.
 

Keep Blowing

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I was going to say yesterday but didn't get round to it @Pete Effamy earns his living from playing and has a totally different perspective than myself, I play for fun, mainly on a Sunday morning so won't be getting sacked, although I do sometimes sack myself, anyway back to Blowin' for a bit.
 

Pete Effamy

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I was going to say yesterday but didn't get round to it @Pete Effamy earns his living from playing and has a totally different perspective than myself, I play for fun, mainly on a Sunday morning so won't be getting sacked, although I do sometimes sack myself, anyway back to Blowin' for a bit.
Playing for fun - is the reason I took a hiatus from the business for a while recently.:(
 

Hackenbush

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@Pete Effamy still hasn't cited any examples of Mr Pine's alleged musical insensitivity - I, for one, would be genuinely interested to hear them.

Assuming they are forthcoming could it not be possible that he was requested to not hold back in his playing? If so, whose fault is it if his contribution sounds 'incongruous'?

As an example of a rock musician appreciating the freer end of jazz, what about the time that Don Cherry toured briefly with Ian Dury and the Blockheads?

And as for a trad jazz band asking a free jazz player to sit in, it would never happen, would it?
 

hedgehog

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I looked at the pictures on the Hanson web site and it seems to me the neck/crook is different from that on other Mark VIs. I'm curious about it. Am I just wrong and it's original? Or could that be a replacement? Why would someone use a replacement? Maybe the original was damaged beyond replair? Or for some other reason like tone or intonation or...
 

rhysonsax

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The brace on the neck is certainly not original. I'm not sure whether the arch of the neck is maybe a bit higher than on an original MkVI neck.

I think that Courtney Pine has got quite a few bits and pieces for his saxophones and bass clarinet at Howarth's in London and at various times they have sold necks by Boesken and Gloger.

Rhys
 
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