Saxophone beginners Counting and Tempo Problems

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Suspect I know less about it than you do but it helps me to put a light pulse into the note at the count. For example if the note is two beats long put a slight change in the intensity of blowing half way through it. That way it seems easier to think 1, 2, 3, 4 or whatever in the head.

Later on this perhaps unpleasant maneuver may be removed??

 

[saxyman]

I think (i hope I am right) that what Clivey means is to try and make the playing of scales interesting.
Instead of just playing them to get to know them, try and Jazz them up a bit., start on a different note, play off the beat. In fact they can become quite pleasant and satisfying, you will then start to feel the tempo and the pulse.
Be careful of getting into bad habits as they can be very difficult to loose. Not too sure about changing intensity halfway through!!!
I am still going down the same road, so never give up and dont despair.
Dave

 

[half diminished]

Make everything you do interesting and try to sound good at all times. I haven't played with a metronome enough and now it's coming back to haunt me! My teacher has slower the piece I am working on right down and broken it up into quavers. In just 20 minutes at yesterday's lesson I managed to play 8 bars of difficult rhythm from Sonny Rollins' Everywhere Calypso perfectly in time at at full speed. We slowed it by half and then half again. Once I played it perfectly we upped the tempo and so on. All I can say it it takes time and proper practice. It much harder to undo than to learn properly first time.

Also chromatic scales ar important. Start slow and even. Always use the correct fingering and gradually speed up. Don't start in the same place, play the whole range of the sax and speed up only when it's perfect.

 

[Tim]

Timming

Great thread guys! Have any of you heard of this? Pete had a piece about him having problems with timing when he started? I can't believe that to hear him now! I can keep time real well as long as my sax is not in my mouth? You ever heard of this? I do my time by hearing the music or knowing the tune. My teacher says, what ever it takes? Any sugestions? Thanks. Tim

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

Something that is helping me with timing and a lot of other things is the following:

(assuming you have a computer with sound and a microphone)

Get a copy of Audacity. It's a free computer recording program.
Also get a copy of Free RIP. For converting CD audio tracks into mp3 format.

Then load the track your working on from the CD from John O'neil's Jazz method into Audacity.

It comes in as stereo which you can split into two seperate mono tracks. One track is background, the other is the sax.

You can see the timing precisely.

You can record yourself as you play over the backing track and see what you recorded waveform looks like.

This way you can see your timing errors vividly.

More importantly, you can also compare your waveforms to the waveforms of the saxophone track from the Jazz method CD.

I found that this helped me a lot. The closer I could get my recorded waveforms to look like the professional sax track the more I sounded like it (obviously).

I found this visual information to be quite helpful. Plus it's always good to record yourself and listen to what you are doing anyway. So it's a great method of practice I think. It works well for me. It's helped me with timing problems as well as other things such as dynamics and tone. You can also see your recorded waveforms change from being erratic and inconsistent to something that becomes more stable and controlled (like the original waveforms of the sax on the lesson CD)

Just my thoughts and experience for whatever it's worth.

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

Hi All,

Just over two months into my journey with my alto yas-275 and still having fun, apart from a numbing of the lower lip when I practice for too long!

I can make a reasonable sound now, well most of the time!

Still playing notes from the C Major scale, and using John O'Neill's The Jazz Method for Saxophone Volume 1; currently working on page 22 and trying to use a metronome for the beat.

The main problem I am experiencing now is combining all the note production, fingering, articulation, breathing and counting in the pieces I am learning and still stay in time with the CD.

I expect it's a silly question but Is it usual at this stage, for a novice musician like myself, to have difficulty in counting out the beat whilst playing.

If I try to count and play I lose the fingering, especially on faster pieces where the beat is at 152; I do play them slower when learning the fingering.

Any tips on how I can get the counting going, and still maintain all the other aspects of playing?

I am having lessons, but thought that I might look to you guys for any tips that you could pass on.

Thanks and happy blowing!

I'm not sure if you're talking about the same book I have. Mine is for Alto sax. I just looked on page 22 and the piece that is at 152 bps is called "251".

If that's the piece you're referring to it's syncopated. I personally wouldn't even try to count that out in 4/4 time as they have it written. I'd count it out as, 123, 123, 12, 123, 123, 12, 123, 123, 12, 1234, 1234

Why bother counting it out in 4's? It's not being played that way. I mean, sure the bass is playing in 4/4 but clearly the sax isn't.

Just erase the bar lines and look at the music. ;}

 

[GsySaxMan]

Spot on SD, 215 is syncopated like you said and I will try your method out with Audacity too.

Mind I did have a very interesting conversation with Stephen Howard just before Xmas, when I picked up my saxes after he had given them the once over. His advice was to try and develop your hearing and avoid using visual signals such as tuners, as the tendency will be to always look to your tuner or visual device to check your performance; additionally just play lots of slow ballads like "Somewhere over the rainbow", which will help in all aspects of early playing development. This learning approach makes a lot of sense to me, and I am trying to follow his advice.

I have been switching on the metronome but not the tuner for the past couple of weeks, and its interesting how you really start listening to the sounds you make rather than concentrating on the blinking of lights.

I am also using SmartMusic for scales and other tunes, which I do find it helpful for the immediate feedback the software provides.

Happy New Year to All, and here's to a better 2011.

Cheers,

 

[BigMartin]

Why bother counting it out in 4's? It's not being played that way. I mean, sure the bass is playing in 4/4 but clearly the sax isn't.

Just erase the bar lines and look at the music. ;}

The danger with this approach is that you end up "doing your own thing" and get out of synch with what the rest of the band (in this case the CD player) is doing. You need to learn to listen with however much of your attention is available to what's going on in the rest of the music, both rhythm and harmony. That way you learn to play in tune as well as in time. Of course, it's difficult at first when your still trying to get your fingers round the notes and keep the tone production going, etc. As other people have said, taking shortcuts so you can play a particular piece with a particular backing track isn't going to help you learn general musicianship.

 

[Tim]

Thanks for all your info. I have Smart Music. It is really good. The only thing that drives nuts is the metro line that goes with the timing. For instance, on 16th notes that are 1 beat the line jumps from the first note to the last and so on. My old brain has a hard time with that. I did 16th notes well before I had them in my lesson book. I have 50'S and 60'S song books and because I know the melodies I play them pretty well. On smart music, google it and watch the demo. Tim

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

The danger with this approach is that you end up "doing your own thing" and get out of synch with what the rest of the band (in this case the CD player) is doing. You need to learn to listen with however much of your attention is available to what's going on in the rest of the music, both rhythm and harmony. That way you learn to play in tune as well as in time. Of course, it's difficult at first when your still trying to get your fingers round the notes and keep the tone production going, etc. As other people have said, taking shortcuts so you can play a particular piece with a particular backing track isn't going to help you learn general musicianship.

Well I was taught that this is the proper way to play a syncopation. So I'll stick with what my music teacher taught me. It works for me. If counted properly there's no reason you should get off from the band, because your count is true. That's actually what you are playing against the 4/4. It's a syncopation. That's what you are playing here. So how is it a "short-cut"? It's what you are actually playing.

What the saxophone in this piece is actually playing is two bars of 3/4 then one bar or 2/4, etc. That what the saxophone is actually playing. If you wanted to you could notate it that way for the saxophone. The only reason that they wrote it in 4/4 time is because that's they way you'll find it written. And the reason you'll find it written that way is because the drums and bass are playing in 4/4 Also to write it in 4/4 doesn't require changing the time signature ever few bars.

In other words, it's only written out in 4/4 time because that's a notational "short-cut'. To write out what the sax is actually playing would require changing the time signature every few bars. So the "short-cut" was actually a notational short-cut for writing out the music. Also if you wrote out what the sax is actually playing it would blow the minds of the drummer and the bass player, because they are indeed playing in straight 4/4 time. This is why the sax is written out in straight 4/4 time, because that's how the overall piece is written. (but that's just a notational "short-cut")

They way I counted it out is what the sax is actually playing. So why not count what you're actually playing?

The sax isn't playing in 4/4. It's playing what I counted. It's a syncopation. How is that a 'short-cut'? It's just what it is.

 

[Tim]

Great info and more! Here's what I have done. I have never seen a 16th note in my life. I'm about a quarter through my first book. I have the 2, 50'S and 60'S popular song books. The first tune in the 60'S book is the theme from the movie Alphe. I know the tune and play it for my teacher. The first note is a 16th. I do it right on he says. I know the tune as I said and that's the way I am doing some of my learning. In my lessons, I work out how they sound and go from there. It seems my timing is from what I hear? I do not play by ear. I put that mouthpiece in my mouth and I can't tap my foot to save my life! Tim

 

[BigMartin]

Well I was taught that this is the proper way to play a syncopation. So I'll stick with what my music teacher taught me. It works for me. If counted properly there's no reason you should get off from the band, because your count is true. That's actually what you are playing against the 4/4. It's a syncopation. That's what you are playing here. So how is it a "short-cut"? It's what you are actually playing.

I didn't mean to cause any offence. I probably misunderstood what you wrote. I was really just trying to say that, in a syncopated passage, there are two sets of rhythms going at once, and you have to be aware of the steady bass/drum pulse as well as what the sax is playing. I'm sure there are several equally valid ways of doing that, but none of them is going to be especially simple until you get used to it. For me personally it's easiest to try and keep the steady pulse going in my head (and ears) and fit my notes around that.

 

[Tim]

Pete: Can you jump in here? You have been doing this longer than most? Thanks. Tim

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

I didn't mean to cause any offence. I probably misunderstood what you wrote. I was really just trying to say that, in a syncopated passage, there are two sets of rhythms going at once, and you have to be aware of the steady bass/drum pulse as well as what the sax is playing. I'm sure there are several equally valid ways of doing that, but none of them is going to be especially simple until you get used to it. For me personally it's easiest to try and keep the steady pulse going in my head (and ears) and fit my notes around that.

I agree, there is no single "right way" to do it. Different approaches work for different people. I also agree that you need to be aware of the two different meters and that you are indeed syncopating. This was actually quite difficult for me at one time. And one of the reasons it was difficult was because I was trying to count the 4/4 meter whilst playing the syncopation and I found that to be way too awkward, at least for me. When it was brought to my attention that I should be counting the actual meter that I'm playing rather than the meter that I'm playing against, it just opened the flood gates for me. I felt like slapping myself on my own forehead for not realizing that in the first place. But it is true that it isn't often taught that way. And it's never written that way on the sheet music. Why not, I'll never know (except for the fact that it would require a lot of time signature changes between measures). But now that I know how to do it I no longer have any problems with syncopation. And bar lines on sheet music often become invisible to me now. I just ignore them if a different meter arrangement makes better sense. It's particularly easy to see in the piece being referred to here because of the phrasing marks. Ignore the bar lines, and just read the phrasing marks to play the syncopation. But you can also see by the note values that it's 123, 123, 12, etc.

I still have problems with syncopations on a drum set though when I need to play both meters simultaneously. I'm still wrestling with that one. That requires a bit of limb independence that I haven't yet achieved. But hopefully I'll get it before too long. 🙂

Try counting both meters at once, that's got to be a real mind-blower. But I guess as a drummer I'll need to be able to do just that. That's going to be a wild experience for me and I'm looking forward to learning how to do it. This is one reason I bought a drum set in the first place. I want to get a better handle on timing, meters, and syncopation. I'm finding that learning to play the drums is an extremely interesting journey. Far more interesting than I had ever imagined.

I'm falling in love with my drum set. 😎

Edited to add: Whilst I'm talking about my drums I may as well post a drawing I just made of my drum set. I just drew this up today to post on a drummer's forum. What a coincidence that it would fit in here too.

 

[Tim]

Happy New Year to all! Interesting discussion. My problem seems simple to me? I can not count at all with the horn in my mouth! So all other info is fine but I do it all by sound and knowing the tune. During a lesson, if I don't get it right, I do it again, and I am right on. Everyone has his own way it seems. Tim

 

[kostas]

I would place this issue more simply...
Take out your metronome and start playing, first at a slow speed and periodically increasing...
Everytime you feel comfortable with one speed go to the next one. After many hours of practicing you will find out that you actually got it and then you can syncopate, solo over a hard to define sheet, or do all the crazy stuff everybody else does...
Just follow what Charlie Parker said...
Learn the Basics...then forget them!!!

 

[Tim]

kostas: Thanks. It's Greek to me. I had to do it? LOL I have the smart music program with built in metro. It drives me crazy. I play a part and keep perfect time on my own after I hear it a few times. Put that metro in front of me, and I'm lost? Why? I, or my teacher have no idea. I can slow down the tempo, but no help. Thanks. Tim

 

[kevgermany]

kostas: Thanks. It's Greek to me. I had to do it? LOL I have the smart music program with built in metro. It drives me crazy. I play a part and keep perfect time on my own after I hear it a few times. Put that metro in front of me, and I'm lost? Why? I, or my teacher have no idea. I can slow down the tempo, but no help. Thanks. Tim

What happens when you play with a backing track or a band?

 

[Tim]

kev: If I have the music, I can work it out after a few tries. If I know the tune, I play it pretty well. New music that I don't know the rhythm does not go so well? Frustrating for sure. Oh, my wife grew up in Munich. Her dad ran the CIA office there from the 50'S to late 60's. Tim

 

[kevgermany]

kev: If I have the music, I can work it out after a few tries. If I know the tune, I play it pretty well. New music that I don't know the rhythm does not go so well? Frustrating for sure.

Same for me, if I'm concentrating on the dots, my timing goes, unless I know it well enough to use the dots as a reminder.

Oh, my wife grew up in Munich. Her dad ran the CIA office there from the 50'S to late 60's. Tim

🙂)) 🙂)) 🙂))