Saxophones Conn, Amati, Weltklang or Buescher

[mark_addy]

Awesome insight, thanks a lot!
If you had to choose one saxophone without being able to test it (which is my case), which one you would actually take?

I missed this question. I am with @Colin the Bear - in these circumstances and on your budget, something new, Chinese, with a guarantee. I bought my girl a new G4M tenor because she got fed up of bits falling off the older, cheap alto I bought her, and I realised that what was a 5 second fix for me was a big pain in the arse for her (age 12 or so) if I wasn't standing behind her all the time. It worked out well.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Update: I will be able to meet with the seller, this next Monday since I am travelling to this city. So I will check the saxes in person. Is there anything I should not miss, underestimate or forget when checking them?

 

[turf3]

Update: I will be able to meet with the seller, this next Monday since I am travelling to this city. So I will check the saxes in person. Is there anything I should not miss, underestimate or forget when checking them?

Check intonation with your preferred tenor mouthpiece. None of these instruments is likely to have inherently poor intonation, but certain horns will behave better with certain mouthpieces.

Since they're all pretty old and not top line instruments, check for looseness and wear in the mechanism; this can cost considerable to get out.

 

[skeller047]

Also check the condition of the pads, especially the palm keys and low Eb. If they obviously need replacement, this is a valid negotiation point.

Basically you just need to verify the instrument is playable as is, and won’t need any significant work done in the next 6 months or so. At 600 euros, having to do a clean-oil-adjust service in a month or two will add 200+ to the price for a workable instrument. That’s more than the mouthpiece I recommended above…

 

[JayeNM]

Update: I will be able to meet with the seller, this next Monday since I am travelling to this city. So I will check the saxes in person. Is there anything I should not miss, underestimate or forget when checking them?

OK well that changes things. So you will play test all ?

That will tell you everything.

Check if all notes 'speak' easily or not. Does any note 'vanish' or jump to a different octave ? Do you have to 'try' a note three or four times to finally get it to speak ?

This indicates leaks. Better not to put the responsibility of getting the leaks repaired ON YOU. Ask seller to attend to that.

Intonation...yes useful. Bring a tuner. If one sax seems more in tune on all notes up and down the registers, that would give it an advantage. NOTE - "in tune" means within around a ten cents variance up and down all notes. For me, for vintage, I actually say 12 cents off is even acceptable on a playtest. So do not get stressed about notes which are 5 cents flat or sharp....that is a meaningless variance.
But if you are getting 15-20+ cent variances on, say, three or more notes, on a certain horn....then that horn would fall to bottom of the list, IMHO.

Then lastly, feel and tone. Do all note fingerings feel easily accessible ? Or do you have to 'reach' your finger for certain ones....or do your fingers feel squeezed kn certain places (meaning they actually touch each other where you want some space).

Are any keys DIFFICULT to press ? Requiring MORE finger pressure than is comfortable ?

Good luck....let us know.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I really want to explore dark, husky, deep , mystic tones. I feel like modern saxes have no character.

With your lack of experience / hours on a saxophone it won't matter what you buy, and it wouldn't matter much for a good player either as what you describe tonally is really a technique called subtone - playable on any instrument.

Think of it in flute terms. I'm terrible on flute. I can sound like the wind blowing down a drainpipe on a cheap Chinese flute. I also sound the same on a Haynes. And a Powell...

 

[LostCircuits]

Update: I will be able to meet with the seller, this next Monday since I am travelling to this city. So I will check the saxes in person. Is there anything I should not miss, underestimate or forget when checking them?

You have no experience with tenor so all you could possibly achieve is bark up the wrong tree. It will certainly help if you try the different options but this is one of the cases where you will be better off trusting the seller. From all I have seen, especially the pictures of the Buescher, he knows what he is doing so anything you might find will most likely be related to your own lack of proficiency.

And if you try to appear smart you will probably achieve the well known effect of "Oh dear, another one who heard it from the reeds that King Midas has donkey ears", or in this case, read it on the internet.

Still, if you can try the horns in his presence, and if you do something that makes the horn sound bad, he will most likely be able to give you advice and tell you what you need to practice to overcome the issues. I highly doubt that you will be able to get the low notes to speak and your intonation will be all over the place no matter which horn until you develop a good embouchure.

Trust the seller and make sure you communicate that you really rely on his expertise, that's the best way to establish a good relationship. And 10 years down the road you'll find out whether you made the right decision and by that time it won't matter anyway. Life goes on...

 

[JayeNM]

Trust the seller and make sure you communicate that you really rely on his expertise, that's the best way to establish a good relationship....

Completely agree.....What could go wrong ?????

 

[LostCircuits]

Completely agree.....What could go wrong ?????
View attachment 38541

FWIW, the seller is not a random person on eBay, more like a 2ndending on steroids

 

[Taz]

I can't vouch for the others and maybe I got lucky but I bought this Amati about 20 yeas ago. She's 65 years old and plays like a storm!! If you'd like to hear it watch this video. I love it and have no plans to change or upgrade her any time soon!

View: https://youtu.be/-4rTKCAFENU?si=eg7R83oBsXymeZY3

 

[felixmrdgez]

I can't vouch for the others and maybe I got lucky but I bought this Amati about 20 yeas ago. She's 65 years old and plays like a storm!! If you'd like to hear it watch this video. I love it and have no plans to change or upgrade her any time soon!

View: https://youtu.be/-4rTKCAFENU?si=eg7R83oBsXymeZY3

Awesome! What model is it?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Corton.

 

[Taz]

She’s an ATS 21. A basic student model. I absolutely love playing her. Nice tone, reasonable ergonomics and bulletproof

 

[jonf]

For a beginner on tenor, I wouldn't buy any of those saxes for €500. I would also caution against trying to buy a tonal concept. It's the player who makes the tone, and you can get more of a variation in tone by changing the mouthpiece than the sax. I'd suggest buying a more modern sax and learning to play the thing.

 

[turf3]

... I would also caution against trying to buy a tonal concept. It's the player who makes the tone, and you can get more of a variation in tone by changing the mouthpiece than the sax. I'd suggest buying a more modern sax and learning to play the thing.

The thing is, you might target a tonal concept, but it turns out YOUR actual sound is actually something quite different. In singing for example, I've always admired the deep bass singers (think gospel quartets). Only problem is, my actual singing voice is a light baritone. Turns out, however, that I can produce a pretty good high tenor falsetto, so when I sing any kind of backup these days, I'm much more likely to be tenoring than trying to sing bass.

When I was a young player, like so many who come from that classical background, I admired Paul Desmond's sound on alto. It took some years of actual real world bandstand experience to realize that MY alto sound is much more toward the Arthur Blythe, Sonny Criss, Lou Donaldson side of things. Now, that Paul Desmond concept seems very low energy and uninteresting to me. I guess I had to get more in touch with the hidden extrovert in myself (VERY hidden if I don't have a saxophone in my hand). Similarly, my very favorite tenor sax sound to listen to is that of John Coltrane. But MY sound isn't anything like that on tenor. I don't even think I could sound like Trane if I tried and spent a bunch of time (and bought a bunch of equipment) on it.

 

[JayeNM]

FWIW, the seller is not a random person on eBay, more like a 2ndending on steroids

Where'd he get those ? I could use some...

 

[JayeNM]

For a beginner on tenor, I wouldn't buy any of those saxes for €500. I would also caution against trying to buy a tonal concept. It's the player who makes the tone, and you can get more of a variation in tone by changing the mouthpiece than the sax. I'd suggest buying a more modern sax and learning to play the thing.

Except it's not the player that makes the tone. A 10m tone is 10m-provided. A player cannot whip up a 10m tone on a Yamaha. They can lean it darker, but Yamas are, intrinsically, not 'dark' toned, 'spread' harmonics horns.

So yes... you can make the effort to make a narrow focused, intrinsically brighter horn play darker...but that doesn't mean horns do not have tgeir own tonal signatures, again due to their design.

 

[turf3]

Except it's not the player that makes the tone. A 10m tone is 10m-provided. A player cannot whip up a 10m tone on a Yamaha. They can lean it darker, but Yamas are, intrinsically, not 'dark' toned, 'spread' harmonics horns.

Well, it's both. Certainly I, playing a 6M Conn, fall in the Sonny Criss (Selmer BA), Arthur Blythe (Buescher True Tone with Berg(!)), Lou Donaldson (Selmer) range of sound.

Without a doubt, the design of an instrument pulls the player's tone a particular direction, but also the player's personal tendencies pull the "design tone" character of an instrument a particular direction. Compare Lester Young and Chu Berry, two guys playing Conn 10Ms and Link mouthpieces; or Ben Webster and John Coltrane, two guys playing Selmer saxophones with Link mouthpieces.

But the OP doesn't HAVE a personal sound yet. I think the best advice for someone just learning to play, is to get a middle of the road setup and to make sure the horn is in excellent playing condition.

 

[JayeNM]

The thing is, you might target a tonal concept, but it turns out YOUR actual sound is actually something quite different. In singing for example, I've always admired the deep bass singers (think gospel quartets). Only problem is, my actual singing voice is a light baritone.

Valid but I think we are beginning to overthink all of this.

OP is restarting tenor...he likes the vintagey dark/spread tonality of vintage tenors. OP is not at a development stage where 'finding your voice/sound' (a term which I feel is total BS, but I'll pretend I don't feel that way) even comes into the picture. He just likes the big dark tone flavor.

He only has enough budget for a second shelf or 'not Big 5' vintage horn.

He has a choice of four which he can try.

The seller appears to be one who has horns in good tack.

None of the horn models s#ck, all are respectable....even if some are not as familiar to most of us as the others are....

So....I don't see the problem here. I certainly don't see why buying a cheapo asian modern horn is a better idea, as some have suggested. We do not have to start on generic, forgettable-toned instruments until we develop further....

Bundys and Shooting Stars ....rocked the foundations, sonically.....no young player starting on those were scarred, moving forward....as I understand it.

 

[JayeNM]

Well, it's both. Certainly I, playing a 6M Conn, fall in the Sonny Criss (Selmer BA), Arthur Blythe (Buescher True Tone with Berg(!)), Lou Donaldson (Selmer) range of sound.

Without a doubt, the design of an instrument pulls the player's tone a particular direction, but also the player's personal tendencies pull the "design tone" character of an instrument a particular direction. Compare Lester Young and Chu Berry, two guys playing Conn 10Ms and Link mouthpieces; or Ben Webster and John Coltrane, two guys playing Selmer saxophones with Link mouthpieces.

But the OP doesn't HAVE a personal sound yet. I think the best advice for someone just learning to play, is to get a middle of the road setup and to make sure the horn is in excellent playing condition.

Both but not to an equal degree. You and I have participated in enough of those threads not to rehash it all here, and we more or less are in the same boat, or one berth away from each other...

My comment was more directed at people who repeat the notion tgat tgecpkayer is primarilyvresponsible for tge instrument's tonality.nThisvignores tge horn's specs and intention of the maker....both very REAL contributors.