Saxophones Conn, Amati, Weltklang or Buescher

[felixmrdgez]

Gun to my head, I would. Still, I'd like to try it first. But who knows... maybe it plays like @LostCircuits ' Buescher tenor I got to try last month. Probably about the same age.

Okay... I'm in. Offer him 400.

Hahaha, cool! Unfortunately I cannot try it so I am risking my purchase based on info and maybe some video samples (I will ask the seller to send me some play tests). Also I think he is fixing the price to 600$ but I’ll see if I can negotiate, lol.

What were your thoughts trying that tenor?

 

[LostCircuits]

Looks like one was added with a custom job. Definitely a Buescher stencil tenor.

It happened while I was typing - and grabbing more coffee before I posted 😉

 

[felixmrdgez]

Definitely a Buescher and it has the newer octave mechanism. The only blemish I see is the red felts, otherwise it looks like a fine horn. It might be worth looking at the octave vent on the neck, most likely it is the standard version rather than the saltshaker.

Another thing about this particular horn is that it has the 1926 pinky table, which has the articulated G# mechanism, not super important but it makes it easier to play compared to the "pearl" version. In other words, you are looking at a highly "modernized" instrument, with all the features of the version IV, at least as far as I can tell from the two pictures. Definitely worth the consideration.

One thing about these horns is they want to be played and they will let you know through their response.

Well you got me excited now!
I really want to explore dark, husky, deep , mystic tones. I feel like modern saxes have no character. This might be the best one for that. I could just be playing two notes for 1h just to hear the sound of the saxophone. Just for the resonant and warm timbre it might have, I am already sold. This also happened to me with old upright pianos, it’s just a treasure to hear the textures of an old instrument.

 

[LostCircuits]

Hahaha, cool! Unfortunately I cannot try it so I am risking my purchase based on info and maybe some video samples (I will ask the seller to send me some play tests). Also I think he is fixing the price to 600$ but I’ll see if I can negotiate, lol.

What were your thoughts trying that tenor?

Last famous words ... You are a "bloody novice" when it comes to saxophones, especially tenor, so it probably wouldn't matter too much if you tried it or not. If the seller is as legitimate as you say, then trust him. You can't really go wrong in this case and with respect to haggling, my recommendation is to pay the asking price and stay on his good side. If you manage to get another 50 Euros off, what's it to you, when it leaves a sour taste in the seller's mouth.

You are not trying to flip it and it won't lose any value anyway, and that's what I would communicate to the seller. You pay the full asking price because you appreciate both the instrument and the seller, that way you can always go back if there are any questions.

 

[Grumps]

What were your thoughts trying that tenor?

I tried a few of @LostCircuits ' tenors that day and that old Buescher was the one I ended up with when we jammed for a bit. I prefer Buescher altos and sopranos to their tenors, so although it was a fine enough horn, I have other preferences.

I really want to explore dark, husky, deep , mystic tones.

I'll tell you something you need to know right off the bat. The saxophone is actually a relatively logical endeavor, especially when it comes to the keywork and octaves. They make sense and flow upwards and down in proper order. What's hard though? Making it sound like a saxophone. May take years. May never happen. But that's the tough part. They don't come with built in tone.

 

[JayeNM]

@skeller047 hundreds of cane reeds! 😳 But they are not cheap, at least not here in the UK. I have about a dozen at best but that's from buying them a few years ago from ebay, dropping on with a reasonable price for a couple packs of 5's. I just got a new one a few weeks ago when trying out a new mouthpiece at Sax. Co but I'll make it last for a long time. I'm only working seasonally once a year at the moment so my income is extremely low. I have to make it stretch for as long as possible 😅 I'll only buy new reeds if it's absolutely necessary at the moment 🤔🤷 unfortunate but it is what it is 🤷

Hi everyone!

I’m looking to buy my first tenor saxophone and would really appreciate some advice from people who have experience with these vintage horns.

I’m trying to choose between a few instruments, ranging from 500 to 600 euros (plus shipping). They all are overhauled and revised by a sax restorer:

Conn Pan American model (year 1955) - 500 euros - s/n 155977

• Fitted with an adapted CEWinds neck instead of the original Conn neck (the original is unavailable)
• I am kinda skeptical that the original timbre would be lost with a different neck
• The seller said it has a brighter, clarinet-like tone (maybe its because of the neck? But in the videos he sent me, I also hear a dark, warm sound in it)
• Apparently its the most comfortable ergonomically of the bunch

Weltklang (year 1966) - 500 euros - s/n 17204

• Described by the seller as having a dark, focused and fat sound. Compared to a trombone-like tone
• Apparently its less comfortable ergonomically than the Conn, but I dont really care

Amati Super Classic model (60s/70s?) - 600 euros - s/n 50269

I’ve read these horns have a very big, full, rich sound. Bit better ergonomics than the Weltklang, probably.

Buescher "American Professional" stencil (1921) - s/n 85433 - 600 euros

• Described as having an excellent, dark, classic Buescher tone
• This is the one I am most interested in because of how vintage it is, and it might have the highest quality in general

My main focuses are free and spiritual jazz. A sound like Pharoah Sanders, Albert Ayler, Coltrane (late period), Archie Shepp, Charles Gayle, Billy Harper, David Murray…

So I am looking for a sound that is very deep and dark. Something with lots of character, tonally. I’m not expecting the saxophone itself to give me the sound of these players, of course. I understand that mouthpiece, reed, technique and the player are extremely important. However, I’d like to choose an instrument whose natural character is a good starting point. I will learn by ear and mostly record myself at home, my goal is to explore the instrument and have fun with it so I have zero anxiety about learning.

I don’t know which one to choose because they all seem great. My favourite pick is the Buescher for now. Unfortunately, I cannot try them in person, so I’m relying partly on the seller’s assessments for now, and some youtube vids I am finding.

Which of these would you choose, and why?

I’d appreciate replies from people who have actually played or owned these particular models, or at least know about the brands.

Thanks a lot!

As others have noted, these are a bit unexciting models. BUT TWO THINGS to take into account.

Your budget is low. Not unrealistically , but low...which hems you in on choices.

In Spain, selection of vintage American models is probably limited. Many more here than in Europe.

- I am NOT TOO HIP on Truetone Tenors, honestly. Primarily because they do not have the 'magic' of the Altos. Something did not translate. If someone wanted a splitbell 20s tenor, I would steer them to Conn, PanAm, Holton, King, or Martin first.

BUT...playing Devil's Advocate....nothing about that Buescher is gonna hold a beginner back or handicap you in your progress.

- The PanAm was the winner until you mentioned the...neck. Then it became the 'no-go'.

- a 60s Welt is a respectable vintage horn. I have refurbed at least 75 Weltklangs....they could be variable particularly starting late 70s...but a 60s one should be quite solid and reliable, if recently serviced. Price is fair.

Amati - like the Welt, a perfectly reasonable lower budget Tenor choice. Probably the youngest on the list. Decent build, good sound, intonation is fine. I would NOT necessarily say the key action is any better or worse than the Weltklang.

I would not say any of these three has an advantage in ergonomics, actually...

So I would call the rating between Buescher-Welt-Amati ....pretty close to equal.

Coolness factor might go to the Buescher.

Rooting for the Underdog theme would go to the Weltklang....

All three can serve a beginner quite fine for several years...

 

[JayeNM]

You may be mixing up the sound of vintage players with vintage horns. Starting out you need a well regulated, leak free instrument. Not a nostalgic collectors item.

Nah...vintage horns have vintage tonalities. Most modern horns fit in a modern tonal paradigm. There is a difference.

Some contemporary horns shoot for the vintage tonality, successfully. Eastman, Buffet. Because they designed them to do that.

It's not "75% the player" or whatever malarkey # people throw around....it's the design spec of body tube and neck. I'll stop here so as not to hijack this gentleman's thread.

But contemporary players using vintage horns...sound like they are playing a vintage horn far more often than not.

So, yeah...the #1 reason players go vintage is for the Tone...and that's not make-believe....

But I understand your point that as far as priorities, a well made leak free model should be at the top.
But all on his list are either good or decent in quality, so assuming all are in full play shape...one will not get bitten by a 'dog', IMHO....

 

[Colin the Bear]

Nah...vintage horns have vintage tonalities. Most modern horns fit in a modern tonal paradigm. There is a difference.

Some contemporary horns shoot for the vintage tonality, successfully. Eastman, Buffet. Because they designed them to do that.

It's not "75% the player" or whatever malarkey # people throw around....it's the design spec of body tube and neck. I'll stop here so as not to hijack this gentleman's thread.

But contemporary players using vintage horns...sound like they are playing a vintage horn far more often than not.

So, yeah...the #1 reason players go vintage is for the Tone...and that's not make-believe....

But I understand your point that as far as priorities, a well made leak free model should be at the top.
But all on his list are either good or decent in quality, so assuming all are in full play shoe, one will not get bitten by a 'dog', IMHO....

Comment not aimed at you but at a raw beginner buying his first horn.

 

[JayeNM]

Comment not aimed at you but at a raw beginner buying his first horn.

Absolutely , that is why I added the final sentences there, which you may have replied to prior to my edit.

Completely agree that top priority for beginner should be good, serviced play shape....followed by 'is it a make of decent reputation' ?

 

[LostCircuits]

- I am NOT TOO HIP on Truetone Tenors, honestly. Primarily because they do not have the 'magic' of the Altos. Something did not translate. If someone wanted a splitbell 20s tenor, I would steer them to Conn, PanAm, Holton, King, or Martin first.

I know the altos are beyond anything of that era but I stick with the notion that my TT tenor is an absolute beast.
There are differences between different horns, of course, and maybe it is the neck that makes mine special.

But hey we are not arguing, just sharing observations, right?
😀

 

[felixmrdgez]

As others have noted, these are a bit unexciting models. BUT TWO THINGS to take into account.

Your budget is low. Not unrealistically , but low...which hems you in on choices.

In Spain, selection of vintage American models is probably limited. Many more here than in Europe.

- I am NOT TOO HIP on Truetone Tenors, honestly. Primarily because they do not have the 'magic' of the Altos. Something did not translate. If someone wanted a splitbell 20s tenor, I would steer them to Conn, PanAm, Holton, King, or Martin first.

BUT...playing Devil's Advocate....nothing about that Buescher is gonna hold a beginner back or handicap you in your progress.

- The PanAm was the winner until you mentioned the...neck. Then it became the 'no-go'.

- a 60s Welt is a respectable vintage horn. I have refurbed at least 75 Weltklangs....they could be variable particularly starting late 70s...but a 60s one should be quite solid and reliable, if recently serviced. Price is fair.

Amati - like the Welt, a perfectly reasonable lower budget Tenor choice. Probably the youngest on the list. Decent build, good sound, intonation is fine. I would NOT necessarily say the key action is any better or worse than the Weltklang.

I would not say any of these three has an advantage in ergonomics, actually...

So I would call the rating between Buescher-Welt-Amati ....pretty close to equal.

Coolness factor might go to the Buescher.

Rooting for the Underdog theme would go to the Weltklang....

All three can serve a beginner quite fine for several years...

Awesome insight, thanks a lot!
If you had to choose one saxophone without being able to test it (which is my case), which one you would actually take?

 

[felixmrdgez]

This is what I picture in terms of tone
John Coltrane - Song of Praise (First Version)
Albert Ayler - Birth of Mirth
Sonny Rollins - The cutting edge
Billy Harper - The Awakening
Pharoah Sanders - Harvest Time
David Murray - Clever Beggar
Albert Ayler - Music is the Healing Force of the Universe
Sonny Rollins - The Dream That We Fell Out Of

 

[turf3]

This is what I picture in terms of tone
John Coltrane - Song of Praise (First Version)
Albert Ayler - Birth of Mirth
Sonny Rollins - The cutting edge
Billy Harper - The Awakening
Pharoah Sanders - Harvest Time
David Murray - Clever Beggar
Albert Ayler - Music is the Healing Force of the Universe
Sonny Rollins - The Dream That We Fell Out Of

Well, the majority of those guys played Selmer Mark 6s. I think the sound profile of a Buescher True Tone is likely to be pretty far from that of a Selmer Mark 6, although I've not played a Buescher True Tone tenor.

 

[felixmrdgez]

Well, the majority of those guys played Selmer Mark 6s. I think the sound profile of a Buescher True Tone is likely to be pretty far from that of a Selmer Mark 6, although I've not played a Buescher True Tone tenor.

Ah that’s funny. I think Ayler played a Buffet Super Dynaction. So how would you describe the Buescher sound? thanks

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's how you play, not what you play it on.

 

[LostCircuits]

Ah that’s funny. I think Ayler played a Buffet Super Dynaction. So how would you describe the Buescher sound? thanks

You can make it sound any way you want. But the Buescher and especially the TTs can take you to sounds/tones that you can otherwise only get from old Kings. In vocal analogy the Bueschers are like Joe Cocker and the MK VI are like Freddy Mercury.

Both have a huge spectrum with considerable overlap but each has some areas that the other one cannot achieve.

The rest is completely up to you, spend 10 years woodshedding 5 hours a day and you will be able to "sing" those nuances on the horn.

 

[skeller047]

Buffet Dynaction was an attempt to compete with Selmer Mark VI. It was close in actuality, but couldn’t stop the Selmer juggernaut of the time.

A horn of that type will be close to what the artists in your list played (nice list BTW). But more to the point, any tenor can reach that sound. Your budget is very limited, so I will agree that the Buescher should be your choice. Note that Sonny Rollins played a Buescher early on in his career.

It will take time to approach the sound you want, and the most important point to focus on is your practice - specifically air and embouchure. Those guys all had very big sounds, and that takes work and time.

The second most important point is the mouthpiece. With the exception of Sonny Rollins, most played an Otto Link. And Sonny did too, for a time. For you to get the kind of sound you are looking for, I would recommend a specific mouthpiece. Otto Link Tone Edge, in a 5* or 6* opening. One of the new ones made in collaboration with Theo Wanne. They are cheap for what they are, namely a top line mouthpiece. A student style mouthpiece will not produce the results you want.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress. Feel free to ask for help here.

 

[mark_addy]

My main focuses are free and spiritual jazz. A sound like ...Archie Shepp...

I know everyone is different, it takes all sorts and variety is the spice of life. But on the basis of the one Archie Shepp LP I own (and of course, I cut out all your other musical reference points, to make my joke) I would insist it really does not matter one bit which saxophone you choose 🙂

 

[JayeNM]

Awesome insight, thanks a lot!
If you had to choose one saxophone without being able to test it (which is my case), which one you would actually take?

Dang, Bro....you asking hard questions .....

 

[JayeNM]

Buffet Dynaction was an attempt to compete with Selmer Mark VI. It was close in actuality, but couldn’t stop the Selmer juggernaut of the time.

A horn of that type will be close to what the artists in your list played (nice list BTW). But more to the point, any tenor can reach that sound. Your budget is very limited, so I will agree that the Buescher should be your choice. Note that Sonny Rollins played a Buescher early on in his career.

Couple things

1) The Dynaction and SuperDyn were not anything close in design to a VI. I think for some reason people like to think of them as modern, or if not modern, then prototypical of modern.I even wonder if the model NAME actually influences folks into thinking this (?)
Mechanically, keywork wise, they are nothing of the sort (modern). They really are straight up vintage mechanics and design, just extremely well done so their key action is quite fluid. I have no doubt they wanted to create a VI competitor....but they did not make the evolutionary leap to the modern mechanics until the S1 (which IMHO was every bit as good, if not better, than a Vi).

2) an early 20s Buescher starts bordering on...archaic just a bit more than I like. So, it's got the big brand name, but really IMHO was nothing special until later. So people hear the name and think 'classic brand' but these are just as forgettable as other big maker's splitbell models, really (sorry, LostCircuits). Not 'bad' by any means....just....nothing makes them stand out compared to more classic, popular vintage models.

Then....sorry, admittedly an unfair question, and more Devil's Advocate than anything else...have you ever tried a Welt or Amati Super in good, serviced shape ?

I couldn't answer OP's question directly above because, honestly, weighing all things...it is imho just a complete tossup....

The Buescher probably would have the best resale value...is about all I can say arguing any sort of 'advantage'....but that scenario would also be based on a future buyer not really boning up on the distinction between various TruTone series...