Scam/Fake? Can it be for real?

[Plateaued Again]

Howdy
I'm a new saxophone player. I started out learning on a loaner King 613. It was on loan from a friend and was showing it's age and probably the results of a life of maltreatment (he got it at a pawn shop as his starter horn). So I was looking for some thing so I could get it back to him before it had a major failure. After watching a video review I bought a Mendini (no joke $200). The Mendini actually turned out to be a decent starter horn and was better than the King.

Fast forward I bought a Jean Paul Academy model 660 alto. Then I took a test drive on a friends YST-62 (purple label) and now I want a tenor sax, a YTS-62 to be more precise. At this stage in my journey I can't quite justify a new gen III so I'm looking at the used market. I've had to stop test driving them at my local shops, last couple of times I barely made it out of there. I'm guessing some of you have been there, hand poised over the phone about to call my credit union to see about a loan against my house...

So I really had to do a double take when I saw what they claim is a brand new, original, Not a copy/knockoff YTS-62 for sale for ~$500 with shipping and taxes on a major online retail site (not amazon or eBay). I don't know if the pictures are really the instrument that they are selling but the engraved name and serial number and Purple label in the picture looks like the real McCoy.

My question to all of the seasoned players and purchasers of saxes here: Is this thing for real or is it a scam? I've bought some other things, not musical instruments, from this outfit in the past and the stuff has been legit so I'm inclined to maybe give it a shot but... If it sounds too good to be true...

Opinions?

Thanks

 

[Pete Thomas]

So I really had to do a double take when I saw what they claim is a brand new,

Which site?

My question to all of the seasoned players and purchasers of saxes here: Is this thing for real or is it a scam?

Price seems too good to be true so…

But you’d need to post some images. Even so the images may be real of course, but that doesn’t mean the horn is real or even exists.

 

[jonf]

OK, so legitimate retailers like Sweetwater sell the YTS62 in the US for about $4300. Someone claiming to sell a new equivalent for $500? No, it's not for real. It's either a scam or a counterfeit, probably the latter. If it's the site I think you're referring to, it is full of blatant counterfeits being sold at, typically, about 15% of the price of the genuine article. You really, really don't want one of these.

Personally I never, ever buy anything (sax related or otherwise) from any marketplace where counterfeit items are openly promoted.

 

[Plateaued Again]

Which site?

Price seems too good to be true so…

But you’d need to post some images. Even so the images may be real of course, but that doesn’t mean the horn is real or even exists.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804640075581.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.1cde5676ROLdxG&algo_pvid=c22d7abe-2393-4e73-89d0-b4a265439a7a&algo_exp_id=c22d7abe-2393-4e73-89d0-b4a265439a7a-2&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22order%22%3A%224%22%2C%22eval%22%3A%221%22%2C%22fromPage%22%3A%22search%22%7D&pdp_npi=6%40dis%21USD%21519.62%21488.44%21%21%213672.24%213451.91%21%402101ec1a17581030407867607eb977%2112000030632590617%21sea%21US%216363848280%21X%211%210%21n_tag%3A-29912%3Bd%3Aaa35edc1%3Bm03_new_user%3A-29895&curPageLogUid=ClrVR83M4vR8&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A%7Cx_object_id%3A1005004826390333%7C_p_origin_prod%3A

 

[Pete Thomas]

Not a copy/knockoff YTS-62 for sale for ~$500 with shipping and taxes on a major online retail site

When you said major online retail site, I thought you meant a reputable one.

AliExpress is full of counterfeits.

 

[Plateaued Again]

OK, so legitimate retailers like Sweetwater sell the YTS62 in the US for about $4300. Someone claiming to sell a new equivalent for $500? No, it's not for real. It's either a scam or a counterfeit, probably the latter. If it's the site I think you're referring to, it is full of blatant counterfeits being sold at, typically, about 15% of the price of the genuine article. You really, really don't want one of these.

Personally I never, ever buy anything (sax related or otherwise) from any marketplace where counterfeit items are openly promoted.

My thoughts too, Though the one in the picture is [knockoff/copy?] of the original YTS-62 Circa 79-80's not the gen III that is sold today on Sweetwater for $4300. Used ones of that vintage typically get posted on eBay for 1.5-$2.5k. Prices may be different on reverb or some other sites that sell used gear like GC or SW but will be similar.
I think that Yamaha has moved on from that version of the model so not real likely it's a legit "New" horn of the version.

Funny bit, on the web page for this horn one of the questions that someone asked was "Is that price for the horn or just the case?"
So For now I'll go back to leaving my drool on the local shops horns and keep the bank loan dept on speed dial.

Thanks for the input.

 

[jonf]

My thoughts too, Though the one in the picture is [knockoff/copy?] of the original YTS-62 Circa 79-80's not the gen III that is sold today on Sweetwater for $4300. Used ones of that vintage typically get posted on eBay for 1.5-$2.5k. Prices may be different on reverb or some other sites that sell used gear like GC or SW but will be similar.
I think that Yamaha has moved on from that version of the model so not real likely it's a legit "New" horn of the version.

Funny bit, on the web page for this horn one of the questions that someone asked was "Is that price for the horn or just the case?"
So For now I'll go back to leaving my drool on the local shops horns and keep the bank loan dept on speed dial.

Thanks for the input.

It is simply a counterfeit. If it's a branded sax (or any other branded item, for that matter) being sold on AliExpress, you have to assume it is a counterfeit, particularly when it's being sold for a tiny fraction of the new price.

You can't get any comfort from the one you're looking at not being the 'current' model. There are counterfeit Selmer Mk VIs being sold on AliExpress, as new saxes. The Selmer Mk VI was last made 45 years ago.

Seriously, AliExpress is not a place anyone should buy a sax from. Personally, I wouldn't buy anything from that site.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Seriously, AliExpress is not a place anyone should buy a sax from. Personally, I wouldn't buy anything from that site.

Amen to that. 🎯

 

[Ghr9204]

The Mendini actually turned out to be a decent starter horn and was better than the King.

It could be that the King needed serious servicing. The new Mendini with new fit and finish would then appear to be the better horn.

At this stage in my journey I can't quite justify a new gen III so I'm looking at the used market. I've had to stop test driving them at my local shops, last couple of times I barely made it out of there.

Finding a YTS-62 in decent used shape at a bargain price will be a tough do. With a little patience, I would look at other tenors: Jupiter, Yamaha next model down Intermediate, Antigua Winds, etc. One of the seasoned techs here mentioned the Taiwanese Allora's were decent saxes.

The Le Blanc Vito's are unsung hero's, 7131T is the Yamaha YTS-23, I have a 7133T, which is a Jupiter (JTS-689?). Metallurgy is stout. These don't have the high F#, but I find using an altissimo fingering easier than the awkward F# pad location for my fingers. These can be found for half the price of their brand name equivalents.

You should be able to find something that plays decently you'll be overall happy with, or happy with for a while.

My question to all of the seasoned players and purchasers of saxes here: Is this thing for real or is it a scam?

It's a scam. Don't jump on it, patience will pay off.

I recently had my 1980's Selmer Bundy II alto serviced for $152, now plays like new. My Antigua Winds pro alto plays as well as my Yamaha YAS-61 pro model I acquired in 1971.

I've heard the Bundy II tenors are decent players.

Remember, it's the artist that makes the sax perform.

 

[Plateaued Again]

It could be that the King needed serious servicing. The new Mendini with new fit and finish would then appear to be the better horn.

Yeah the king has been rode hard and put away wet. The Medini didn't have far to go to be a better feeling/playing instrument.

Finding a YTS-62 in decent used shape at a bargain price will be a tough do. With a little patience, I would look at other tenors: Jupiter, Yamaha next model down Intermediate, Antigua Winds, etc. One of the seasoned techs here mentioned the Taiwanese Allora's were decent saxes.

I just stumbled onto my local Facebook market place page with literally 100's of used saxes for sale in the area. This takes some of the anxiety out of the process since now I can relatively easily get the the horn in my hands and make a relatively informed decision.

I saw a another recommendation for the Alloras. They put it in fast company.

The Le Blanc Vito's are unsung hero's, 7131T is the Yamaha YTS-23, I have a 7133T, which is a Jupiter (JTS-689?). Metallurgy is stout. These don't have the high F#, but I find using an altissimo fingering easier than the awkward F# pad location for my fingers. These can be found for half the price of their brand name equivalents.

They seem to popular. lots of sold ones. They don't seem to languish on the boards for to long.
Where does a JTS-710 sit in the mix?
Where does a 1920s Vintage Buescher C Soprano sit in the mix? 🙂

It's a scam. Don't jump on it, patience will pay off.

Yeah after doing some more research I'm a little more savvy on the scam market for saxes.

I recently had my 1980's Selmer Bundy II alto serviced for $152, now plays like new. My Antigua Winds pro alto plays as well as my Yamaha YAS-61 pro model I acquired in 1971.
I've heard the Bundy II tenors are decent players.

There's lots of those Bundy's around. Prices run the gamut. Unfortunately none are listed locally that I can go test drive.
Backstory:
I recently bought a new guitar from Sweetwater, a reputable well thought of brand and it was a total trainwreck. The setup was beyond atrocious and there were serious build defects. I had to send it back. It was the first (and last) musical instrument that I had bought sight unseen (before the Mendini) that I hadn't had it in my hands and had it sing to me and make me take it home with me. With all the ways that a sax can be worn, maladjusted and mistreated I'm very hesitant to buy anything without playing it first. So I'll just have to wait for one to came available locally.

Remember, it's the artist that makes the sax perform.

Noooo! Say it isn't true...
I learned to play the guitar in my twenties. Started learning the piano in my 30's, the flute in my 50's, the violin in my 60's and the sax at 71 and after amassing a huge stable of musical instruments I can verify that they are just tools and require a skilled craftsman to create music with them. 🙂

Thanks for the input.

Cheers

 

[jonf]

@Plateaued Again be cautious with Facebook Marketplace. It is a totally unregulated marketplace with no protection whatsoever to the buyer, so you are at risk of buying stolen goods, counterfeits and other scams.

 

[Ghr9204]

Where does a JTS-710 sit in the mix?

Can't say. I really don't keep up with things. I bought my early 1990's? Vito (Jupiter) in 2010 for $414 US shipping included, came from a Canadian listing on US Ebay. It was their earlier version as it came in a tan coloured Le Blanc case. Later were black. Both the Vito's made by Yamaha and Jupiter were sold in the exact same Le Blanc case. Le Blanc is now a Conn-Selmer brand, unfortunately they discontinued Vito.

Mine, the metallurgy is stout. There were portions from prior use where the lacquer was worn off. It came with a number marked on the case end. I gather it may have been at one time a school or rental instrument, which also explains the wear, minor dents. If it had been with the Jupiter label, I would have easily expended twice for it.

I used Brasso (carefully, because if one rubs too hard, can remove the lacquer) to remove the tarnish and polish the bare brass underneath. Then put a coat of Maguiar auto polish to help make the bare lacquer tarnish resistant. It also darkened the brass a touch to better match the lacquer.

About 5 years ago, I bought tenor sax pads from Ebay, did my own repad for about $60. Got most of the pads right, but didn't have a leak light. I took it to Tarpley's music store. Tech called me a week later, "Someone repaded this sax, but it got some leaks!" He gave me a price to fix, $152 out the door.

I didn't tell him who did the repad, he did a decent job in COA (clean, oil, adjust and minor replace a pad, missing cork bumpers, etc.) on 3 saxes I sent in: it, my 2012 Venus soprano (paid $219 on Ebay, Musical Wheel - California, one of the few Chinese budget saxes that had very good reviews, plays like an Intermediate, my favourite although I have not learned how to smile and play out of the side of my mouth like Kenny G), Venus Tenor (paid $450 in 2016), and 1980's Selmer Bundy II (bought used on EBay around 2002 for $140 - seller even included tech workorder that it had been serviced). Servicing cost for the other two was about the same.

Where does a 1920s Vintage Buescher C Soprano sit in the mix? 🙂

I don't know. Best ask @PigSquealer , an excellent repair tech in Southern California. He's done many of the Melody C's and mentioned doing some some C sopranos.

I recently bought a new guitar from Sweetwater, a reputable well thought of brand and it was a total trainwreck. The setup was beyond atrocious and there were serious build defects. I had to send it back.

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like a brand that was good and went south during production. Musician's Friend, I had a nice ukulele that I ordered. It got smashed by heavy hands in shipment. They allowed return for free for another.

I bought 2 no-name beginner guitars by an Oriental seller on Ebay for $46 each. These were for Salvation Army guitar class. (I taught ukulele but assisted another teaching guitar.) When they came in, found that the manufacturer hadn't even bothered to sand the holes in the wood where the tuners were installed. You get what you pay for. I bought these as donation for student instruction instruments.

From that point I wait for sales on Muscian's Friend. At least they sell better quality stuff.

I learned to play the guitar in my twenties. Started learning the piano in my 30's, the flute in my 50's, the violin in my 60's and the sax at 71 and after amassing a huge stable of musical instruments I can verify that they are just tools and require a skilled craftsman to create music with them. 🙂

I also got started on organ in high school, my parents had a Kimball. Have had various keys throughout my 50 years of music history. Did background music at parties at work, which helped build bridges to other people. Would bring my "Real" Real Book, put on jazz.

 

[PigSquealer]

Where does a 1920s Vintage Buescher C Soprano sit in the mix? 🙂

I don't know. Best ask @PigSquealer , an excellent repair tech in Southern California. He's done many of the Melody C's and mentioned doing some some C sopranos.

@LostCircuits knows the C sopranos better than I do.

 

[turf3]

Let's cut to the chase.

Anyone who's offering a YTS-62 for $500 is selling either stolen goods or counterfeit goods. Period.

 

[PigSquealer]

When you said major online retail site, I thought you meant a reputable one.

AliExpress is full of counterfeits.

Alibaba, Themu & Fleabay too. Some member on BOTW recently purchased a Yamaha fake on Fleabay. $875 for a new “EX 82z”.
The listing was really well done scam.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Alibaba, Themu & Fleabay too. Some member on BOTW recently purchased a Yamaha fake on Fleabay. $875 for a new “EX 82z”.
The listing was really well done scam.

But on eBay I think your payment should be well protected. Not sure since they switched to their own payment system from PayPal.

 

[PigSquealer]

But on eBay I think your payment should be well protected. Not sure since they switched to their own payment system from PayPal.

No clue what the current Fleabay policy is. The member was attempting a full return & credit….then I was forced to take a vacation. Dunno the outcome.
Yeah, PP has / had good consumer protections. Providing you avoid F & F.

 

[Ghr9204]

No clue what the current Fleabay policy is. The member was attempting a full return & credit….then I was forced to take a vacation. Dunno the outcome.

Best policy is simply to not even get involved. It is better to walk away from a problem rather than get involved, then attempt to correct it afterwards, because the buyer may be the ultimate loser.

However, some get so involved with the eye candy from these Pied Pipers that they jump onto it before thinking. Best is they end up with an Oriental clone at a touch more than the non-falsely labeled brands. Worst, they just got bilked for the amount they expended.

If it seems too good to be true, more times than not it is. Walk away.

 

[PigSquealer]

Best policy is simply to not even get involved. It is better to walk away from a problem rather than get involved, then attempt to correct it afterwards, because the buyer may be the ultimate loser.

However, some get so involved with the eye candy from these Pied Pipers that they jump onto it before thinking. Best is they end up with an Oriental clone at a touch more than the non-falsely labeled brands. Worst, they just got bilked for the amount they expended.

If it seems too good to be true, more times than not it is. Walk away.

And so many times people ask qualifying questions after the purchase ! Education is expensive or dirt cheap. No middle. It’s a choice.

 

[LostCircuits]

They seem to popular. lots of sold ones. They don't seem to languish on the boards for to long.
Where does a JTS-710 sit in the mix?
Where does a 1920s Vintage Buescher C Soprano sit in the mix? 🙂

Where does it sit? Price wise? Playing and intonation?

There are at least 4 different series of the Buescher c-sop out there, ranging from ~ $300.- (needs work) to 12,000 (detachable bell - only 2 were ever made).

With the right MPC, they are sweet players, the last series was keyed to high F but even with the Eb keyed versions, playing to high F is not an issue, you just need the right fingering.

Lovely tone, good intonation, anything else you want to know? Here is a sample:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJLqk0WBBrA