Saxophones C Melody Saxophones

[Pete Thomas]

You forget SML, SML made c melody too, but extremely rare to find one

But if anyone can I'm sure that will be you! 🙂

 

[PigSquealer]

You forget SML, SML made c melody too, but extremely rare to find one

If you can find pictures and a link to document one I will include it. I have not found any.

 

[PigSquealer]

Updated C Melody makers list.

List update 9-13-2026
New addition of Dolnet & Levebre
Now 26 Known makers.

Aldolphe Sax, Belgium
Aquilasax (was brand made by?*) New Zealand / China ?
Beaugnier ( +/- 200 units, Vito engraved) France
Buescher, USA (Unknown if EBIC produced a C Mel)
Conn, USA
Couesnon, France
Couturier, USA
Dolnet & Levebre, France
Evette & Schaeffer, France
F.X. Hüller, Germany
Hawkes & Son, England (undetermined if Boosey & Hawkes made a C mel)
Holton, USA
Jerome Thibouville Lamy, France
J L Woodwinds ( handmade by order only. Imported parts) 10/ 2021.
Kolhert, Graslitz Czechoslovakia 1840-1945
Kolhert, Winnenden, Germany. 1945-1982
King, USA
Lyon & Healy, USA
Martin, USA
Oscar Adler, Germany
Pan American, USA
Pierret, France
Rampone & Cazzani, Italy
René Guénot, France
Selmer Paris, France
York, USA

Sakkusu, Thomann, SLADE, Tuyama, and miscellaneous brands available on the Internet sites like,
Amazombie, FleaBay, Alibabaf. Are all current brands made by who ?
*The Aquilasax is well noted. Built in China and was sold by Steven Wedgewood, New Zealand.
Possibly any of these made by.
Taisain Winds, China.
Shandong Crown Musical Instruments, China
Eastern Music, China
….or a handful of other options between China, Taiwan, Vietnam.

I haven’t been able to qualify what other European makers made C melodies. Between France & Italy there was something like 200+ small makers pre war. The production was likely small. Many got scrapped for war materials.

Amati, Hohner, Julius Keilwerth, Hammerschmidt and Dörfler & Jörka.
I’m reasonably certain did not make a C Melody.

 

[jcn664]

If you can find pictures and a link to document one I will include it. I have not found any.

I ask a friend who have c melody sml but it says me it's stencils beaugnier for custom order,

 

[jcn664]

I haven’t been able to qualify what other European makers made C melodies. Between France & Italy there was something like 200+ small makers pre war. The production was likely small. Many got scrapped for war materials.

Amati, Hohner, Julius Keilwerth, Hammerschmidt and Dörfler & Jörka.
I’m reasonably certain did not make a C Melody.

I haven’t been able to qualify what other European makers made C melodies. Between France & Italy there was something like 200+ small makers pre war. The production was likely small. Many got scrapped for war materials.

Amati, Hohner, Julius Keilwerth, Hammerschmidt and Dörfler & Jörka.
I’m reasonably certain did not make a C Melody.

I Will have beaugnier c melody not condition to play, but have you picture about this, i will have that next month

If you want or interested
Is it rare, i ask you because you're one expert in C melody,

Me, i prefere to focus on soprano and c soprano,
If you need information about soprano or c soprano, ask me,

 

[PigSquealer]

I Will have beaugnier c melody not condition to play, but have you picture about this, i will have that next month

If you want or interested
Is it rare, i ask you because you're one expert in C melody,

Me, i prefere to focus on soprano and c soprano,
If you need information about soprano or c soprano, ask me,

Thank you, I do have pictures. More are always welcome.
Yes rare, Approximately 120 - 150 made. Less than 35 sold.
Contact me by message when this arrives.
I have one C Sop, a curved & straight sop. That’s enough for me.

 

[rhysonsax]

I have one of the Beaugnier C Melody saxes from the 60s and it’s badged as a Vito. Straight (alto style) neck like some of the Conns. It’s a very good instrument in good condition. Plays well with the right mouthpiece and that’s often a challenge for the C Mels in general.

Rhys

 

[turf3]

Anyone have a record or pictures of what mouthpiece was discovered with a Martin or Couturier C ?

I have zero information on Martins.

Most Couturier’s I have or have seen have a maroon Holton Perfected mouthpiece. Oddly Couturier was bankrupt by October 1923 and the Holton Perfected mouthpiece didn’t arrive until early 1924. So ??

Well, it's my understanding that Holton bought Couturier. (Or, maybe, some more complex kind of arrangement.) Certainly my Holton Collegiate soprano is Couturier all the way, in design and execution, with only a few very tiny touches that MIGHT have been influenced by Holton. If Couturier and Holton were sharing distribution, it seems possible that even under Holton management/ownership, there could have continued to be Couturier-branded horns, made in the Couturier factory, and supplied with Holton branded mouthpieces.

Or, when an owner dropped and broke whatever mouthpiece originally came with his Couturier branded horn, he went to the store where he'd bought it, and now they were carrying Holton products?

It's also possible, I suppose, that Couturier-branded C melodies were the slowest moving inventory that Holton owned, so they could have still been taking them out of storage, putting them in cases with Holton mouthpieces, several years after the actual production of the things stopped. "Gee, Fred, look here, some music store in Montana ordered four Couturier C melodies! Wonder what's in their water out there! Do we still have them back on rack 32?"

The thing is, when we start talking about business relationships and the disposal of slow moving inventory, of very small numbers of products (how many Cmels did Couturier ever make, anyway? were they all branded Couturier, or were some branded differently? If Holton got an order for four and only had two, would they have just engraved "Couturier" on two Holton Cmels and shipped 'em? etc., etc., etc.) and it all happened a hundred years ago, and all the companies involved have been bought and sold and their offices moved multiple times - there are just going to be some unexplainable mysteries.

Heck, in my professional life, I'm occasionally dealing with products of my company that are 15-30 years old, and very often we can't figure out whether some oddball feature is the result of subsequent rebuilding or if it was made that way - well, when the maintenance of the SN lists and production records was transferred from Production to QA to R&D and back to QA and the QA manager was laid off and the QA office transferred to a whole different division - where did those boxes of SN lists and production records GO? I remember the Bankers Boxes sitting on a shelf in the deep-storage area five years ago - are they still there, after we've gone through and cleaned that area out three times?

Now consider that if there even WERE any records in 1922-1926, the only point of them would have been to make sure that accounts payable and receivable were disbursing and receiving money like they should; and once the fiscal year was past, the records really weren't of much use. All those filing cabinets full of yellowing crumbling bills and invoices from over a hundred years ago, do you REALLY think that all the various corporate successors, with a new manager over each department every few years, multiple moves of office, etc., etc., etc., would have kept all that crap? Nope. Out to the dumpster it goes.

 

[turf3]

And don't forget the scrap metal drives of WW2 - a lot of old Cmels came out of closets and attics and went for scrap. Brass was much wanted.

 

[PigSquealer]

Well, it's my understanding that Holton bought Couturier. (Or, maybe, some more complex kind of arrangement.)

No. Frank Holton bought the LaPorta factory from Lyon & Healy. April 1928.

Lyon & Healy bought the Couturier LaPorta factory (Couturier went into receivership on October 4th 1923).
1924 Lyon & Healy bought the Couturier company and continued producing conical bore instruments in LaPorte until April 1928. L&H made improvements and changes during their ownership. Couturier origin yes, but not completely Couturier copies.

Certainly my Holton Collegiate soprano is Couturier all the way, in design and execution, with only a few very tiny touches that MIGHT have been influenced by Holton. If Couturier and Holton were sharing distribution, it seems possible that even under Holton management/ownership, there could have continued to be Couturier-branded horns, made in the Couturier factory, and supplied with Holton branded mouthpieces.

The Holton Collegiate was 100% NOT Holton Elkhorn production. The “Holton Collegiate” line alongside the “Beaufort American” were the first brand names produced under Holton ownership of the LaPorta factory.
These were not Holton stencils, but a continuation of Lyon & Healy / Couturier origin.
Frank Holton closed the LaPorta factory in 1929.
DM me your full SN# with detailed pictures and I can tell you more on your soprano.

Or, when an owner dropped and broke whatever mouthpiece originally came with his Couturier branded horn, he went to the store where he'd bought it, and now they were carrying Holton products?

The Holton Perfected mouthpiece was available in mid / late 1922. SOP in blue shade. Publically announced May of 1923.
Couturier announced saxophone production in July 1922.
Relationships existed between J.W York, E.A. Couturier, Fred Gretsch, George W. Lyon and Patrick J. Healy.
It’s 1000% possible that orginal Couturier shipped saxophones came with a Holton Perfected mouthpiece. Almost every Couturier or L&H sax I’ve acquired has had one in the case.
Where’s the factory proof ?? Other than MTR I’ve never seen any published evidence.

It's also possible, I suppose, that Couturier-branded C melodies were the slowest moving inventory that Holton owned, so they could have still been taking them out of storage, putting them in cases with Holton mouthpieces, several years after the actual production of the things stopped. "Gee, Fred, look here, some music store in Montana ordered four Couturier C melodies! Wonder what's in their water out there! Do we still have them back on rack 32?"

Nope.
1) Couturier saxes (all) started around SN# 7000, August 1922 officially. Ending SN#13275 mid (?) 1924.
Roughly 6200 saxophones in seven months.
Couturier were the most expensive high grade instruments at the time and selling well. Fred Gretsch branded them. In US territorial regions.

Whaley & Royce were the Northern/ Canadian official agents.

When L&H acquired the assets and inventory of E.A. Couturier In 1924. There wasn’t much old inventory left.
What was still in inventory / production unmarked in 1924…..early 1925 was clearly engraved so.
Consider this from a company standpoint as “transitional”. The owners or employees really didn’t know. Ernst Couturier was suffering blindness. Primarily the reason his company failed.

Out of respect to a man going blind with great product. Previous long term relationships and unknown disposition of current inventory. L&H was respectful to the man. 1924 onwards, L&H badged products with both names.

Do note the engraving on saxophones themselves progressively changed from 1924-1926. Upon L&H ownership the engravings show “Makers” and “Couturier Model”.
1926 L&H made engineering/ mechanical changes.

The thing is, when we start talking about business relationships and the disposal of slow moving inventory, of very small numbers of products (how many Cmels did Couturier ever make, anyway? were they all branded Couturier, or were some branded differently? If Holton got an order for four and only had two, would they have just engraved "Couturier" on two Holton Cmels and shipped 'em? etc., etc., etc.) and it all happened a hundred years ago, and all the companies involved have been bought and sold and their offices moved multiple times - there are just going to be some unexplainable mysteries.

Hogwash. The Couturier / L&H deal was long done before Frank Holton stepped in. Besides, Frank NEVER stenciled a single instrument EVER ! The initial Collegiate and Beauford American were completely different lines produced away from his Elkhorn factory.

Heck, in my professional life, I'm occasionally dealing with products of my company that are 15-30 years old, and very often we can't figure out whether some oddball feature is the result of subsequent rebuilding or if it was made that way - well, when the maintenance of the SN lists and production records was transferred from Production to QA to R&D and back to QA and the QA manager was laid off and the QA office transferred to a whole different division - where did those boxes of SN lists and production records GO? I remember the Bankers Boxes sitting on a shelf in the deep-storage area five years ago - are they still there, after we've gone through and cleaned that area out three times?

Sounds like anal engineers got a biscuit from the Maintenance and Machining department. The crew that makes things happen…..
Think as a going away present that basically says… “ if you’re looking for how we fixed your mistakes that we gave you good team feedback on. Then crapped on us. Well, go pound sand ! “.

Now consider that if there even WERE any records in 1922-1926, the only point of them would have been to make sure that accounts payable and receivable were disbursing and receiving money like they should; and once the fiscal year was past, the records really weren't of much use. All those filing cabinets full of yellowing crumbling bills and invoices from over a hundred years ago, do you REALLY think that all the various corporate successors, with a new manager over each department every few years, multiple moves of office, etc., etc., etc., would have kept all that crap? Nope. Out to the dumpster it goes.

Fires lost many manufacturing records 1900-1930. Those that didn’t suffer fires were lost in company transfers / acquisitions. 1910- 1970.
The all important stuff was kept in a fireproof safe.
Duh, busines 101…ship happens money 101,cira 1800 onwards.
As an engineer this knowledge is obviously above your scale. No disrespect.
There’s more than one place to view records…. Just follow the money.
I study deeply. Hold much to my chest. You left out taxation.
If you honestly think only one business record of money transactions existed on a company or location…..Well, maybe you need to change thoughts. 1865 to 2026 would be a good study range.

Think business, quarterly reports…
Plan on more than a quick net search. More like years of refined study…...building factory level younger generation contacts. This takes years…
NOT…..Minutiae of filtering garbage net generic searches😤. Roll up your sleeves and do some real research yourself dude!!!!!!
I HONESTLY invite you to bust my chops.
Yeah, I have records of WWI reported tax taxes paid by Holton. All by reported staff accounts on employees.
1917-1919. War tax paid.

 

[jcn664]

I know pelisson or gautrot made few produced c melody

 

[skeller047]

@jcn664 - your signature line says you have too many saxophones. That is not true, you are just out of balance because you only have 1 tenor. Get 2 or 3 more, and you'll feel differently...

 

[turf3]

No. Frank Holton bought the LaPorta factory from Lyon & Healy. April 1928.

Lyon & Healy bought the Couturier LaPorta factory (Couturier went into receivership on October 4th 1923).
1924 Lyon & Healy bought the Couturier company and continued producing conical bore instruments in LaPorte until April 1928. L&H made improvements and changes during their ownership. Couturier origin yes, but not completely Couturier copies.


The Holton Collegiate was 100% NOT Holton Elkhorn production. The “Holton Collegiate” line alongside the “Beaufort American” were the first brand names produced under Holton ownership of the LaPorta factory.
These were not Holton stencils, but a continuation of Lyon & Healy / Couturier origin.
Frank Holton closed the LaPorta factory in 1929.
DM me your full SN# with detailed pictures and I can tell you more on your soprano.

The Holton Perfected mouthpiece was available in mid / late 1922. SOP in blue shade. Publically announced May of 1923.
Couturier announced saxophone production in July 1922.
Relationships existed between J.W York, E.A. Couturier, Fred Gretsch, George W. Lyon and Patrick J. Healy.
It’s 1000% possible that orginal Couturier shipped saxophones came with a Holton Perfected mouthpiece. Almost every Couturier or L&H sax I’ve acquired has had one in the case.
Where’s the factory proof ?? Other than MTR I’ve never seen any published evidence.

View attachment 37223

Nope.
1) Couturier saxes (all) started around SN# 7000, August 1922 officially. Ending SN#13275 mid (?) 1924.
Roughly 6200 saxophones in seven months.
Couturier were the most expensive high grade instruments at the time and selling well. Fred Gretsch branded them. In US territorial regions.
View attachment 37224
View attachment 37225
Whaley & Royce were the Northern/ Canadian official agents.
View attachment 37226
View attachment 37227
When L&H acquired the assets and inventory of E.A. Couturier In 1924. There wasn’t much old inventory left.
What was still in inventory / production unmarked in 1924…..early 1925 was clearly engraved so.
Consider this from a company standpoint as “transitional”. The owners or employees really didn’t know. Ernst Couturier was suffering blindness. Primarily the reason his company failed.

Out of respect to a man going blind with great product. Previous long term relationships and unknown disposition of current inventory. L&H was respectful to the man. 1924 onwards, L&H badged products with both names.
View attachment 37228
Do note the engraving on saxophones themselves progressively changed from 1924-1926. Upon L&H ownership the engravings show “Makers” and “Couturier Model”.
1926 L&H made engineering/ mechanical changes.
View attachment 37229

Hogwash. The Couturier / L&H deal was long done before Frank Holton stepped in. Besides, Frank NEVER stenciled a single instrument EVER ! The initial Collegiate and Beauford American were completely different lines produced away from his Elkhorn factory.

Sounds like anal engineers got a biscuit from the Maintenance and Machining department. The crew that makes things happen…..
Think as a going away present that basically says… “ if you’re looking for how we fixed your mistakes that we gave you good team feedback on. Then crapped on us. Well, go pound sand ! “.

Fires lost many manufacturing records 1900-1930. Those that didn’t suffer fires were lost in company transfers / acquisitions. 1910- 1970.
The all important stuff was kept in a fireproof safe.
Duh, busines 101…ship happens money 101,cira 1800 onwards.
As an engineer this knowledge is obviously above your scale. No disrespect.
There’s more than one place to view records…. Just follow the money.
I study deeply. Hold much to my chest. You left out taxation.
If you honestly think only one business record of money transactions existed on a company or location…..Well, maybe you need to change thoughts. 1865 to 2026 would be a good study range.

Think business, quarterly reports…
Plan on more than a quick net search. More like years of refined study…...building factory level younger generation contacts. This takes years…
NOT…..Minutiae of filtering garbage net generic searches😤. Roll up your sleeves and do some real research yourself dude!!!!!!
I HONESTLY invite you to bust my chops.
Yeah, I have records of WWI reported tax taxes paid by Holton. All by reported staff accounts on employees.
1917-1919. War tax paid.

Well, you could dial down the rhetoric a bit. I was only speculating, and I made that completely clear. No, I'm not going to reproduce the research you've done, what would be the good in that?

The speculation started because YOU asked the (rhetorical?) question, what's up with mouthpieces that supposedly weren't introduced till later, showing up in the cases of horns that supposedly stopped production earlier?

Now, a day or so later, you've basically answered your own question, the answer basically coming out that there's minimal separation - a few months at most - which could easily have been covered by early pre-production of the mouthpieces (and yes, I know I'm oversimplfying).

As for the Couturier/L&H/Holton progression, you could just provide the info without the excoriating language - I indicated that I wasn't clear on the details.

As for speculation, and the real world of what happens in manufacturing plants, versus what's reported financially, it's all part of a picture. If one decides to dig deeply, as you obviously have done, then all that information is used to get a whole picture. It's not "above the pay grade" of an engineer, certainly not one who's spent 40 years in both engineering and company management. What it is, is way out of scope for casual internet speculation on why certain MPs repeatedly show up in the cases of certain horns.

 

[jcn664]

@jcn664 - your signature line says you have too many saxophones. That is not true, you are just out of balance because you only have 1 tenor. Get 2 or 3 more, and you'll feel differently...

I don't like personnally the tenor in Bb

 

[turf3]

Aside from the little kerfuffle there, it's interesting that an instrument apparently conceived and priced as a top grade instrument, within 4-5 years was being offered as the Holton "second line".

Things REALLY happened fast amongst those companies in those few years. Timeline seems to be (all from Squealer's info above):

7/22: Couturier announce saxophone production
8/22ish Couturier start actual manufacturing SN 7000
10/22 Holton Perfected MP becomes available
10/23 Couturier into receivership
"mid 1924" last Couturier production SN 13,000ish
1924 L&H buys Couturier factory (do they buy the whole company?)
1926 some design changes under L&H; L&H in this time frame appears to be labeling the horns "Lyon & Healy Couturier Model"
4/28: Holton buys the former Couturier factory from L&H - did the horns start being engraved "Holton Collegiate" around this time?
1929 Holton closes former Couturier factory. What happened to the design, the tooling, the manufacturing equipment after that? I seem to recall that "Holton Collegiate" remained the brand for a Holton second line horn for quite a few years. How long did Couturier design remain in these?

When I acquired the Holton Collegiate soprano, I thought it was a "crappy student horn". (It's not in very good condition.) However, it has an excellent tone. I'd put it up against my Buescher True Tone soprano on that. The one piece G#/C# key is VERY unusual. It took the advent of the internet for me to find out that this is a Couturier design feature, that hung on through the L&H period and into the Holton Collegiate period. (I've been playing saxophone since 1978 and I never even HEARD the Couturier name till maybe 5 or 8 years ago. Now I see there weren't really all that many.)

It's only recently (and I suspect the only person on the net who's really got all this Couturier/LH/Holton stuff straight is PIgSquealer) that I find out that whatever the shortcomings of my soprano, at least in its initial conception it was planned to be a really top-notch instrument. I suppose it deserves a better quality repad/regulation/overhaul. And replacement of that horrific thumb ring with a better thumbhook.

 

[PigSquealer]

9

I know pelisson or gautrot made few produced c melody

René Guénot, France is listed.
Gautrot ? Please provide full name and check for correct spelling. Pelisson too.
Please provide any links or knowledge to research the possibility.

 

[PigSquealer]

1929 Holton closes former Couturier factory. What happened to the design, the tooling, the manufacturing equipment after that? I seem to recall that "Holton Collegiate" remained the brand for a Holton second line horn for quite a few years. How long did Couturier design remain in these?

The exact month of 1929 Frank Holton gutted the LaPorta factory I have not researched. The Great Crash of stock market started around third week of October 1929. This may have been a factor.
The machinery and tooling was moved to Elkhorn. Was it setup and used to produce the Collegiate line? Examples of SN# 36,000 to 115,000 Collegiate product would tell. Best I know the last of LaPorta product was sold by 1933 / 115,000 SN.
The Collegiate line name I think ended when Leblanc in 1964 bought the company.

FWIW the Collegiate brand wasn’t a second line / lower grade. It was mainline product. The Revelation line was equally made.
Your Sop is rare build. If the SN# is 202,000 range it’s even rarer. A Couturier design, built by L&H, finished by Holton.

 

[PigSquealer]

@turf3 I just looked for L&H serial number and Holton Collegiate engraving.
Only two sopranos. Key of C not noted.
201849 , recorded from Sotw post on 10/12/2008
201923 , recorded from eBay on 4/20/2010

 

[turf3]

I'm currently 100 miles away from that horn, but I hope to remember to pull it out take some photos and let you have them when next I'm at that house.

 

[Greychatter]

Folks...
Here is a draft of a a "newbie" guide to the C melody sax that attempts to answer common questions in a realistic and (I hope) helpful way. I've done my best to provide researched and source-attributed information. I'm asking the crowd here to look it over as time permits and suggest edits that will make it cleaner or more accurate. My special thanks to Dave Francis, a member of a Facebook group on the C mel, who has generously permitted me to include his two recent posts (which are verbatim); and to PigSquealer here for providing great detail and source material -- which I've used. This is presented here for your review. All constructive feedback is cheerfully accepted. Due to its length, I've dropped a PDF here. (This file is for free distribution for non-commercial use. No data is collected for downloads.)