Theory & Impro C#7b13

[mrblackbat]

Would it depend on what key you're in? In F# melodic/harmonic minor I think you'd have an Ab?

A C#7b13 has the same notes regardless of what key you’re in. It implicitly says the key is F# minor whatever. You may seem them resolving to F# major, or not resolving. But the tonal centre is F# minor.

The concept of being in a key is often moot; especially when looking at the kind of songs a 7b13 is going to appear in (standards): the songs move through several tonal centres usually.

 

[mrblackbat]

F♯ melodic minor

• Ascending: F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D♯, E♯
• Descending: F♯, E♮, D♮, C♯, B, A, G♯

F♯ harmonic minor

• Notes: F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, D, E♯

AND, the F# minor scale would be?
Relative Major scale? 🏴‍☠️

I absolutely hate that way of talking about the melodic minor scale. It bears no real use in actual music. Shocking fact: playing down the ‘ascending’ melodic minor sounds really cool. And of course it contains the Lydian b7 and altered scales, both of which have massive use in minor (and major) tonalities.

Far easier to think of aeolian, melodic and harmonic, all up and down, and then understand how the harmony works and when switching between them makes sense from a melody perspective.

 

[cappers]

I’m completely confused now.

Why do my theory questions get confused

Just to be clear the version we play is in F#m and starts Bm7/ E7/ Amaj7/ Dmaj7 /G#m7b5 /C#7 /F#m7 /F#m7. I was asking about the end of the solo with a half bar of C#7b13.

I used the F#harmonic minor to solo. @wakyct asked if that had an Ab in it. Piccolo and I said no.

I'm grateful for the advise but perhaps we should end this before it becomes another of my long-winded theory threads!

 

[mrblackbat]

If you want to try another sound over that C#7 chord, the C# altered scale will sound great there, it’s basically a D melodic minor scale starting on the C# - C#, D, E, F, G, A, B

 

[Pete Thomas]

I absolutely hate that way of talking about the melodic minor scale

It all depends on context. There is a reason for the different ascending/descending versions but goes back to earlier times when 6ths and 7ths were different depending on melodic use. I agree it is not relevant for jazz (although IMO the entire concept of melodic minor scale is vastly overrated and often not very useful)

it’s basically a D melodic minor scale starting on the C# - C#, D, E, F, G, A, B

It may have the same notes but I don’t believe that’s a useful way to think about it.

 

[mrblackbat]

It may have the same notes but I don’t believe that’s a useful way to think about it.

I think this is where we disagree. For me, thinking the 7th mode of melodic minor means I have less scales to practise, and easier able to think of patterns that I use that work over the same material.

It’s like how I think the interchangeability of minor 7 and major 6 chords is useful to reduce the amount t you need to practise and think about. Dm7 = F6.

Less is more!

 

[cappers]

The previous two posts exemplify why it can be downright confusing for a beginner!
Two accomplished players who know their theory inside out can't agree
It's like being back in academia

 

[mrblackbat]

The previous two posts exemplify why it can be downright confusing for a beginner!
Two accomplished players who know their theory inside out can't agree
It's like being back in academia

Tim’s like any language though; at the moment they try and teach kids to spell via phonetics. But then that doesn’t work because there are loads of things that don’t sound like how they’re spelt, and so you have to unlearn everything.

From a certain point I get where Pete’s coming from; go learn all the scales and chords and really drill them. But I also like to think of the shortcuts, which have helped me an awful lot. Treating dominant chords as leading diminished and then starting to interchange which note I add to that diminished has been a game changer for me both improvising and composing. And drilling into melodic minor scales and its modes for uses like above also.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The previous two posts exemplify why it can be downright confusing for a beginner!

I think if you are asking about C#7 b13 then it’s way beyond a beginner question.

There are different methods, just as in learning to paint. I prefer what I find to be the more musical, artistic or lyrical approach, even if it appears more complex at first. Nobody said it would be easy but that’s what I learned, what I’ve used in my career and what I would continue to teach. It needn’t be confusing as long as you don’t try to believe everything you read on the internet. Especially guitar sites 😉 or ai

 

[Ivan]

I’m completely confused now.

That's a relief

 

[cappers]

I think if you are asking about C#7 b13 then it’s way beyond a beginner question.

I have a questioning mind and since I've ended up playing in a band where chords like this occur I want to know more, even if it's beyond my pay-grade.

It's a year now so still a beginner bluffing his way but learning more everyday, and realising how much I don't know 🙂 which I find exciting rather than concerning.

The finer points of chord theory, harmony etc are beyond me but I'm cheered by the fact that I know my maj7s from my dom7s and m7b5s etc and can see and hear 251 progressions - a few months ago all that was 😳???

I have a great face-to-face teacher but the advice, support and encouragement here has really helped

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think if you are asking about C#7 b13 then it’s way beyond a beginner question.

I have a questioning mind and since I've ended up playing in a band where chords like this occur I want to know more, even if it's beyond my pay-grade.

That is absolutely fine, I was referring to how the answers were going off into non beginner territory.

 

[mizmar]

It's like being back in academia

I appreciate it may seem like that - in the academy people are with looking for "the truth" (physical sciences) or persuading other of "Their Truth" - but, actually, here you get alternative points of view, each of which provide alternative musical opportunities... None of which are True or False.

 

[Ivan]

None of which are True or False

Apart from the right and wrong ones

 

[skeller047]

Hopefully this is a beginner-friendly post. This is from the perspective of jazz music as it is practiced today. Jazz music from the 1920s and 1930s often uses more classically oriented rules, but since the end of WWII, the following points are valid.

Point #1. When you see a dominant chord, e.g. C#7, with additional alterations, e.g. C#7b13, it is common for people to infer and play other altered extensions - b9, #9 and b5/#11.

Point #2. These alterations are derived from accommodating melody notes. E.g., C#7b13 use the note A, the third degree of F# minor, so if the melody contains A over a C#7 chord, that is where the alteration comes from. Note that today, it’s often common practice to use this chord in any context, e.g. F# major, just to add flavor.

It’s worthwhile to spend some time studying these extended chords at a keyboard to familiarize oneself with the sounds. I recommend Mark Levine’s excellent Jazz Piano Book as a source of ways to voice these chords. Mark never ever played a bad voicing in his life. I have found that studying good voicings for dominant chords has informed my melodic improvisation greatly.

Point #3. The melodic minor scale should not be thought of in the context of harmony, it is for melodic use. That is why in classical theory there is the harmonic minor scale and the melodic minor scale. The name says it. Note that today, the melodic minor scale is often used in the ascending version only; that is, the same notes are played going both up and down.

Also, this scale has many uses besides just starting on its root note, but that is beyond the scope of this post. (Side note - I have an objection to terms like “the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale”. Mostly because I think that it’s a bad idea to conflate the idea of a “mode” with that of a “scale”. I understand this is a quirk of mine, but I’m old and thus allow myself a large degree of quirkiness.)

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think if you are asking about C#7 b13 then it’s way beyond a beginner question.

Yes. It gives rise to so many more too, but with little background in theory you get into hot water immediately.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think if you are asking about C#7 b13 then it’s way beyond a beginner question.

Yes. It gives rise to so many more too, but with little background in theory you get into hot water immediately.

And I’m not saying beginners should not ask such questions, but to just be prepared when the answers either delve much deeper into what can either (necessarily) be more advanced theory or else go into realms of confusion and sometimes less than helpful complexity. It’s a fine line.

 

[cappers]

Yes. It gives rise to so many more too, but with little background in theory you get into hot water immediately.

I don't know if you read the OP but my enquiry was simply that I had worked out what I thought the notes of the C#7b13 chord were and was confused when I checked on line.

I agree my background in theory is limited and I shouldn't open Pandora's Box as it were.

 

[mrblackbat]

I agree my background in theory is limited and I shouldn't open Pandora's Box as it were.

Nah, dive in!

 

[Pete Thomas]

I’ve moved discussion about how modes are derived to a new thread as it’s a whole new topic:

Theory & Impro - Modes related to major scale or not)

Side note - I have an objection to terms like “the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale”. Mostly because I think that it’s a bad idea to conflate the idea of a “mode” with that of a “scale”. Genuinely curious how do you go about thinking of modes then? I don’t think I’ve ever come across...

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