Theory & Impro b13 and Charlie Parker

[cappers]

A video short by Jay Metcalf (Bettersax) popped up on my feed about a common lick CP used over a 2-5 progression.
Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7 after the descending Am7. He calls this a b13.
I thought I was beginning to get some theory under my belt but this eludes me.
B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?
Thank you.

 

[Zasterz]

we always need to take into account that these things can be somewhat regional, colloquial, and dependent on whatever scene or subculture you're in. These things haven't been codified to the extent of the common practice music of a European conservatory.

THIS is the most important point imo. All this talk of when it’s proper to call something a 6 or 13 is like studying proper grammar. At the end of the day, you’re going to hear a lot of “ain’t”s and “irregardless” and “should of”s and like it or not, or whether you choose to speak that way yourself or not, you ought to be able to understand what the other person means!

 

[cappers]

Thank you @progger.

Dominant 13: 1, maj3, 5, maj7, 9, #11, maj13 (corresponds to the Lydian Dominant sound)

Why does the Dom13 have a major7? I thought it should be minor7: 1-3-5-m7-9-#11-maj13? e.g C7 CEGBb so add 9(2) #11(4) & 13(6) is CEGBbDF#A.

Re Lydian Dominant scale it's 1–2–3–♯4–5–6–♭7 so the Dom13 is 1-3-5-b7-9(2)-#11(4)-13(6)?

Thanks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Add2 chords are commonplace and include the third (1 2 3 5). Ditto with Add4 (1 3 4 5).

I’ve heard of add2 (but not in conventional jazz theory). It seems more of a country thing.

I’ve never heard of add4. Sus4 yes where the 4th (or 11th) is used instead of 3, although with an 11th it’s ok to include the 3rd in a voicing if it’s on inside parts a semitone lower than the 4th/11th (but not if the 11th is is melody).

Jazz theory teacher hat off:

the word add seems to imply you add the note, e.g. add 2 means it’s just added to a triad and usually applied to music genres that don't typically have extensions like 9ths.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Why does the Dom13

Note there is no such chord symbol. Any time a symbol has 13 (e.g. E13) the dominant 7 (b7) is assumed.

 

[Zasterz]

I’ve heard of add2 (but not in conventional jazz theory). It seems more of a country thing.

I’ve never heard of add4. Sus4 yes where the 4th (or 11th) is used instead of 3, although with an 11th it’s ok to include the 3rd in a voicing if it’s on inside parts a semitone lower than the 4th/11th (but not if the 11th is is melody).

Jazz theory teacher hat off:

the word add seems to imply you add the note, e.g. add 2 means it’s just added to a triad and usually applied to music genres that don't typically have extensions like 9ths.

There are other genres besides jazz, y’know? “Add” chords aren’t confined to country. They’re common in pop, rock, gospel, folk, and especially among guitar-players. Add4 isn’t so common but I’ve seen it. End of the day, these are ways humans use to communicate musical intent. There’s no universal standardized system. When playing with other people, it’s good to be flexible to different ways of doing things rather than the musical equivalent of “grammar police”.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There are other genres besides jazz, y’know?

Indeed I do. But this thread started out about jazz so that’s why I replied talking about “conventional” jazz theory which I think Charlie Parker and b13 fits into. Of course there are other genres, but I only mentioned one of them as an example.

it’s good to be flexible to different ways of doing things rather than the musical equivalent of “grammar police”.

I couldn’t agree more. And that’s the way I approach teaching.

 

[progger]

Thank you @progger.

Why does the Dom13 have a major7? I thought it should be minor7...

Thanks.

That was a typo! I'll fix my post, thanks for catching that!

 

[cappers]

I could geek out about this stuff all day...

When I first started learning, the theory side almost put me off. I realised that although not strictly necessary some understanding is helpful and I persevered. I still get lost and confused but I am enjoying it and find it fascinating.

 

[JSL]

A video short by Jay Metcalf (Bettersax) popped up on my feed about a common lick CP used over a 2-5 progression.
Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7 after the descending Am7. He calls this a b13.
I thought I was beginning to get some theory under my belt but this eludes me.
B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?
Thank you.
View attachment 34318

I think your question has been fully answered in this thread and you seem to have grasped it very well. What I'd like to add is the really important thing regarding a b13 or b9 or any other chord tone or note is to HEAR it in action. The phrase pictured in the attachment above (and in your OP) is absolutely beautiful. Much of that beauty is encompassed in the sound of the b13 in the context of the notes surrounding it. Play it on your horn or on a piano and get that sound in your ear! This a part of what made Bird sound so great.

Thanks for posting that, cappers.

p.s. I should add that identifying the notes in that ii-V-I numerically and its sound makes it fairly easy to transpose to other keys.

 

[cappers]

p.s. I should add that identifying the notes in that ii-V-I numerically and its sound makes it fairly easy to transpose to other keys.

A year ago I wouldn't have had the foggiest what you are on about.

What I'd like to add is the really important thing regarding a b13 or b9 or any other chord tone or note is to HEAR it in action.

Now I see a lead sheet and can recognise a ii-V-I or a ii-V-i by the chords and by their sound. I'm practicing 2-5-1s in all keys to get the 'feel'.

 

[JSL]

A year ago I wouldn't have had the foggiest what you are on about.

LOL. And now you do know what I'm on about! That's great progess.

 

[ChartResources]

Why notate Bb instead of A#? It would seem that Bb isn't an approach to the D7 chord but that we're already there with A# being an "alt," the augmented fifth.

 

[Zasterz]

Why notate Bb instead of A#? It would seem that Bb isn't an approach to the D7 chord but that we're already there with A# being an "alt," the augmented fifth.

Bb is the b6 of a D7 chord when it’s acting as the dominant of a minor key, i.e. G minor. The notes in G harmonic minor are G A Bb C D Eb F#. D7 with a flattened 6th degree comes from this scale.

Additionally, it already has a 5th- A. It can’t have both a 5 and a #5.

 

[r. giuseppe]

Did anyone mention that the terminology of 9, 11, and 13 in chords has to do with layering thirds to traditionally build chords?
1-3-5-7-9-11-13 follows this layering.
1-2-3-4-5-6-7 does not.
The implications of certain numbers and the exceptions (6, add2, sus4) have been discussed, but that is the starting point of why anyone would say 13 in the first place.
Sorry if I just missed this part.

 

[skeller047]

Ran across this today. I found this a very clear and cogent distillation of basic harmony, applicable to both jazz and modern pop. (That will be a dollar three-eighty for the use of high-fallutin words please.)

View: https://youtu.be/qrmNWwiZZc8

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just one more thing…(to make it even more complicated) if there isn’t a 9th or 11th and then it could be an augmented chord, e.g. D7+ (or D7^#5)

The chord notes would just be D F# A# C

In that case of course there would not be a perfect 5th (whereas a b13 can be voiced with a perfect 5th but very often doesn’t)

This would mean the original video transcription is technically a bit wrong

Edit:I just noticed this post:

Why notate Bb instead of A#? It would seem that Bb isn't an approach to the D7 chord but that we're already there with A# being an "alt," the augmented fifth.

Yes this is true, the chord could very easily be D7+ in which case it would be A# not Bb

 

[Pete Effamy]

If a chord has a 3rd (i.e., it's not a sus chord), it's going to have 9ths

Except in the case of the “Mu” chord

Bottom line, as long a you understand both, you're fine.

Yes, despite what I said above, there are many “except when…” in music, but as Lydian says, they both represent the same pitch and that is what someone is talking about

Ran across this today. I found this a very clear and cogent distillation of basic harmony, applicable to both jazz and modern pop. (That will be a dollar three-eighty for the use of high-fallutin words please.)

View: https://youtu.be/qrmNWwiZZc8

Um, chord vii not used for 100 years ?!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Um, chord vii not used for 100 years ?!

But then very quickly goes on to show a B min7b5 in the key of C. Presumably though he is purely thinking of it as part of secondary dominant to the Am which is fair enough.

 

[Targa]

Um, chord vii not used for 100 years ?!

Tell the Moody Blues you think you’ve found it.

 

[Pete Effamy]

But then very quickly goes on to show a B min7b5 in the key of C. Presumably though he is purely thinking of it as part of secondary dominant to the Am which is fair enough.

I switched off at that point