Beginner Saxes Amazon Import Upgrading

[Direct Current]

I can buy nice used Yamaha YAS 23, 25, 275 for half the price of new ultra cheap alto. So why buy new?

I was looking at over half dozen models for $300 or less, new. Amazon.

Here in CA USA, none of the used Yamaha models in that price range are playing. They are parts. Definitely nothing for half of $300 that can function. Probably starting around $400 if lucky, and that is way over the $300 most expensive cheapo. Several of the cheapest are $200.

Maybe the used Yamaha sax market is more active in Europe or Asia.

Maybe the Amazon offers in the US are more silly than abroad.

At least here in CA USA, your last paragraph is entirely inaccurate.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You can't use this as a yardstick of how good a horn is, because the ratings are mostly posted by beginner players, most experienced players wouldn't touch these cheap horns even if you paid them.

Well...I would...if you paid me. 😉

 

[Direct Current]

You can't use this as a yardstick of how good a horn is, because the ratings are mostly posted by beginner players, most experienced players wouldn't touch these cheap horns even if you paid them.

The objective, as stated, was to give the newbie a cheap shot at six or eight months of playing a new sax. Move on from there. Seemed nicer than telling Dad he could never resell it., so tell your kid no.

Of course experienced players would not be touching these offers. Was never the intended scenario.

 

[mizmar]

barge loads of saxophones of this class being sold daily, enjoying 4+ ratings,

Few of which will reflect whether the instrument keeps good setup over months or years of playing/swabbing etc.

So, I scrolled through a bunch of 2,3,4* comments on Amazon (.com) for Jean Paul, and there is, indeed, a good clutch of comments falling under "inconsistent quality control".
There's a good few "cork fell off", "stuck key" etc. and a good few "sounds good through the range" which probably means "not leaking".
And very few "well, it's been a year..."
According to Jay etc. it's a sound instrument. But according to the reviews, you may get lucky with QA and you may not.
Again, visit to the tec and you'll know what you have and that any problems are you and not the kit... Possibly for years.

 

[thomsax]

At least here in CA USA, your last paragraph is entirely inaccurate.

Yes, I know.

 

[mizmar]

Of course experienced players would not be touching these offers

I suspect many (semi)pros bought a - or kept their student - Yamaha 23 or such as backup, looked after it / had it looked after... And those are the ones people still love (like mine) - and there where 1000s manufactured which broke and got binned decades ago.. survivorship bias - we only see the good ones!
Who knows? Maybe in a decade or two those JPs that where looked after will also be considered classic, basic horns?

 

[jazzdoh]

The better way to go is to rent a better quality sax and then see if the beginner still wants to play after 3 months, many don't carry on after this period.
These saxes are priced on Amazon in the UK in the range of £150 to £300 assuming that someone has to make a profit then you can only imagine what the quality is going to be, plus you have to look at the new player having to fight against the poor quality and you can see why probably many don't carry on after a few months.

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's, essentially, a lottery.

I've seen a good number of these 'Amazon specials' - and they've ranged from really rather good to complete disasters....with the really good ones being much rarer. And there's really no telling which of these you'll get, no matter what's stamped on the bell.
Unqualified reviews are pretty much worthless; and by that I mean from folks who have little or no idea as to what 'mechanical intergrity' is or even looks like. Some of those folks may be very good players.
The best advice I can give is that if you choose to buy one of these horns, whip it straight round to your repairer and ask them for an appraisal (might cost you the price of a pint) and then either send it back or decide whether to use it. Or perhaps even spend a few quid on some tweaks.

 

[Direct Current]

Well...I would...if you paid me. 😉

It's honest work!

I don't know what Amazon shows in Europe. Here the cheap imports on Amazon are generic or one of two brands distributing every type of band instrument.

Here in USA those cheap imports are BIN $185 to $250. All the same and with white gloves. Always six or ten or more BIN offers in that range, so why a bunch of the same cases over that price i don't know.

I checked three major news sources and no reports of saxophones overwhelming waste management, so that refutes the rumors of over consumption in the reed instruments space.

As for what they are paying you, I'd urge you to find the surfeit of used playable Yamaha saxophones selling for half of $200. lol

=====

Among constructive comments supporting our thrifty Dad are:

> Yamaha 4C - $35

> Teacher or Technician look over once and advise - $40 ?

> Minor work, better reeds, better strap - $90 ?

I'm at $365 for brand new saxophone, which in CA USA is roughly half cost of playable used Yamaha and bang on cost of good used CONN.

or

Return to Amazon.

So with $365 as cost for working worst case scenario and new....versus playable used Yamaha costing at least $600 if you can find (speaking of CA USA), is advising Dad to hold out for the Yamaha's better resale value the best advice?

It's cheaper and faster to buy daughter her cool color trial saxophone (CA USA p o v).

Reading the opinions in here of the JEAN PAUL saxophones alerts me to a bias against the origin country of the cheap imports. That's fine as opinions go but things that are manufactured, even the best stuff, inevitably becomes mass produced without sacrifice to quality.

I'd rather see kids try a saxophone from any country. Once hooked, they will buy the $220 high performance MP. But they will neither play nor buy anything if Dad is hung up on resale values of cheap stuff intended for entry level / introduction.

 

[Direct Current]

It's, essentially, a lottery.

I've seen a good number of these 'Amazon specials' - and they've ranged from really rather good to complete disasters....with the really good ones being much rarer. And there's really no telling which of these you'll get, no matter what's stamped on the bell.
Unqualified reviews are pretty much worthless; and by that I mean from folks who have little or no idea as to what 'mechanical intergrity' is or even looks like. Some of those folks may be very good players.
The best advice I can give is that if you choose to buy one of these horns, whip it straight round to your repairer and ask them for an appraisal (might cost you the price of a pint) and then either send it back or decide whether to use it. Or perhaps even spend a few quid on some tweaks.

THIS

And over time, like we saw with stereos, like we saw with cars, the market forces will require manufacturers to step up. It's manufacturing, not religion.

 

[Pete Thomas]

is advising Dad to hold out for the Yamaha's better resale value the best advice?

In most cases it probably is. The generic "Amazon" horn will most likely not even have a resale price to worry about but if you are into a gamble and can find a good tech who can check it and make good any issues you could be fine.

One problem is that there are repairers who are open minded, but also I believe still some who will not touch an instrument made in China. Or even if they do they may not want to have to charge you more than the instruments I worth in order to fix it.

 

[mizmar]

And over time, ..., the market forces will require manufacturers to step up. It's manufacturing, not religion.

Evidently not!
It's the free market where, if there are punters who are willing to pay a low price for low quality (for financial reasons, out of ignorance, due to marketing etc), someone is likely to fill that opportunity if there's a profit available. Equally there are punters who pay over the odds.

All people here are saying is that there's a class of horn which hit their price point by shaving on quality control - and you can possibly balance that with the help of a local tec.

And that isn't a bias against any manufacturing country or region. The fact is if you have a group of factories making stuff to order for good quality products, there'll be rejected parts or palettes of parts leaving through the back door which someone will use to make second, third tear goods, with lower cosy processes etc.

 

[Direct Current]

I suspect many (semi)pros bought a - or kept their student - Yamaha 23 or such as backup, looked after it / had it looked after... And those are the ones people still love (like mine) - and there where 1000s manufactured which broke and got binned decades ago.. survivorship bias - we only see the good ones!
Who knows? Maybe in a decade or two those JPs that where looked after will also be considered classic, basic horns?

Poignant.
Thoughtful.
Empathetic.

Literally THE main reason this thread did more promotion of used Yamahas than addressing from a data and market perspective. Sentiment.

OTOH, the country of origin is committed to mastering manufacturing of technology and luxury goods at quality levels seen in Germany (automotive) and Japan (consumer goods). From 2015, when most of these Amazon cheap imports were boat anchors, to 2021, where Jay Metcalf found much pleasant to say about his random $300 purchase (albeit using his MP) off of Amazon. And now in 2024, after almost a decade of beating the drum about their lacking quality, it's reasonable to assume the cheap saxophone lottery is becoming favorable to the consumer.

From the middle 1950s to middle 1960s, Japan completely changed perception of their consumer goods. Emerging manufacturing giants of today have benefit of Internet, universities, and data processing. It's making stuff. Let's embrace the opportunity.

 

[Stephen Howard]

THIS

And over time, like we saw with stereos, like we saw with cars, the market forces will require manufacturers to step up. It's manufacturing, not religion.

At least where horns are concerned I'm afraid that's rather wishful thinking.
Over the years I've pointed out some quite serious manufacturing defects on expensive horns - and then been very dismayed to see the same issues crop up on later examples. They know they can get away with it because the very, very vast majority of players have no real idea of what a fully-fettled horn feels and plays like. Press a bit harder here, blow a bit harder there and "That'll do ya". It's actually all a bit sh*t. As are some of the horns straight out of the box.
The best that I can do is try to educate folks; teach them what to look for, raise their expectations and show them how to have the confidence to say "This ain't right. I'm not buying that". And it's a long, slow process.

Now, if the 'big boys' won't play the game - what hope d'you think you have that the cheapo guys will step up the plate? I can tell you...it's zero. Been there, tried to do that.

And, you're slightly wrong about it not being a religion. You can point to a turd and say "It's a turd"...and there'll always be a bunch of folks who'll say 'Nope'.

 

[Direct Current]

One problem is that there are repairers who are open minded, but also I believe still some who will not touch an instrument made in China. Or even if they do they may not want to have to charge you more than the instruments I worth in order to fix it.

This is factual in CA USA. Maybe all of USA.

Pundits of the JEAN PAUL are quick to point out that the J P company is trying to build a service network, parts, etc.

"Will not touch" is no exaggeration.

Maybe I'm remembering when I sold golf gear and lots of kids were quite turned on playing with cheap clubs and balls that no one with any experience would touch. But the intent was to provide Mom with a no brainer purchase. Engagement. Two seasons later, they bought the Callaway gear.

 

[mizmar]

Literally THE main reason this thread did more promotion of used Yamahas than addressing from a data and market perspective. Sentiment.

Not quite.
Yamaha - across their product lines - established and maintained a reputation for solid, middle of the road goods. They throw in some higher end stuff, but the floor is quite solid on the whole. Motorbikes or musical instruments. Not the cheapest, far from the most expensive.
Still, a very old horn, manufactured as a basic model, is not representative of the whole production run!

 

[Direct Current]

Not quite.
Yamaha - across their product lines - established and maintained a reputation for solid, middle of the road goods. They throw in some higher end stuff, but the floor is quite solid on the whole. Motorbikes or musical instruments. Not the cheapest, far from the most expensive.
Still, a very old horn, manufactured as a basic model, is not representative of the whole production run!

Sure. I meant to say, we hardly discussed what to do with the $200 purchase presumably made for entry level / eight months.

The thread became about favorable sentiment towards anything model used Yamaha.

I think it later offered the constructive consultation I intended:

Teacher or Tech look over and advise.
If keeping, better MP and reeds min. Maybe little more.
$365 and new and just creating eight months or so to connect.

 

[mizmar]

we hardly discussed what to do with the $200 purchase presumably made for entry level / eight months.

I think some are saying

All people here are saying is that there's a class of horn which hit their price point by shaving on quality control - and you can possibly balance that with the help of a local tec.

I may be good for a few months... Or decades.

But the issue is that if it's not good out of the box - many of the 2/3* reviews - it'll be off-putting. To avoid that, maybe a quick visit to the tec and maybe that's a better option than a cheap bit of other kit... In answer to your opening post.

Oh and things like Rees and aren't really a trade-off, they're essential goods.

 

[sunsetandlabrea]

I’ve had friends ask me about those for their kids. “It’s cheap and who knows if the kid will like it”. I have gently pointed out that
a) the probability of the kid not liking it is in direct inverse relationship to the quality of the instrument; and
b) they won’t be able to sell it if the kid doesn’t like it.

In the 90s I worked at a music shop selling guitars, keyboards, drums, etc. No wind instruments. At Christmas time we would stock guitars of dubious quality from China. When parents came looking for something for their children whether acoustic or electric I would try and persuade them of the wisdom of spending just a little bit more money and getting the lowest end Yamahas which frankly were terrific instruments. Most didn't to be honest, because they said they could upgrade if their kids took to it.

I expect most failed to take to it because the guitars they were bought were just about unplayable. The resale value of these guitars was almost nothing, whereas they would have probably got most their money back on the Yamahas.

My son now plays the Yamaha acoustic I bought 30 years ago, and I expect in the future his son or daughter could as well.

 

[jonf]

I had a look at Jean Paul saxes on Amazon UK. The cheapest was £750. You'd have to be mad to spend that sort of money on a sax from Amazon, particularly when the same sax can be bought for less from a proper music shop.

In terms of what could add value to a cheapo sax, a basic but good mouthpiece and a trip to a decent technician for a set up would be all I'd suggest.

I have somewhat contradictory feelings about super cheap saxes. When someone asks me about what sax to buy for a beginner, I invariably suggest a lightly used Yamaha student sax from a reputable seller. However, ultra cheap saxes - either own branded from a sax shop, or even cheaper from establishments like Gear 4 Music or Thomann have undoubtedly democratised starting to play a musical instrument. A basic Thomann alto is £266, which in real terms is about a fifth of the cost of a student sax when I started playing in 1980. And a well set up Thomann or G4M sax will play better than a clunky old Weltklang from my youth.