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Alcoholic help in France

saxyjt

Saxus Circus Maximus
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I don't know how it working in France but here in Sweden it's the employer responsibility to deal with if an employee have alcohol and drug problems. They pay for it. Often it's the 12-step program. It's based on AA. I guess it's the same In France. Or it should be.
I can't be sure, but I think in France if an employee has a drinking or drug problem it's probably a motive for sacking him/her with aggravated fault (Licenciement pour faute grave) and no compensation...

See, very different cultures! :w00t:

A few years ago I got fired because I had a burn out! Not directly related, but it gives an idea of the trend.
 

saxyjt

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Yeah. I can't see something like systembolaget (the Swedish state monopoly on selling anything other the beer) working in France!!
Well, I didn't know about Systembolaget but I just read it is qualified as non lucrative, that's if you consider collecting taxes not lucrative...

Also, in France we had the SEITA, until the 70s, managing all things related to tobacco production and sales but without a point of sales network.

Some used to say that the state was organizing a mass murder and benefiting from it through taxes.
 

mizmar

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Trondheim, Norway
France and Sweden aren't so far apart if we remember that Pernod Ricard bought Absolute from the swedish government...
... And talking about tobacco, that the swedish government won and exception for Snus (swedish chewing tobacco) from the EU (which i welcome being, myself, a Snus addict... But that's a whole other addiction!)
 
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thomsax

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Sweden
France and Sweden aren't so far apart if we remember that Pernod Ricard bought Absolute from the swedish government...
... And talking about tobacco, that the swedish government won and exception for Snus (swedish chewing tobacco) from the EU (which i welcome being, myself, a Snus addict... But that's a whole other addiction!)
Aboslut was sold by the swedish state. And other brands as well. I didn't like that the state owned liquer plants.
 

thomsax

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Well, I didn't know about Systembolaget but I just read it is qualified as non lucrative, that's if you consider collecting taxes not lucrative...
Systembolaget in Sweden, Vinmonopolet in Norway, Alko in Finland ..... also Iceland haave a sales monopole and most of the Canadian regions and some states in USA as well. Of course, Systembolaget is not no-profit comany. The profit goes back to the state and into the wellfare system. And to take care of persons that have alcoholic and drug probem is a part of the wellfare.
 

thomsax

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Sweden
Have a friend in France on the cusp of admitting she's an alcoholic but she's making excuses for not getting help.
I think she's scared if she takes that step she'll not be able to get back to alcohol.
She's dual nationality.
Where can she get help over there? What kind of help?
Hard to say how much and what kind of help your friend in France need. But if a person relize that the alcohol is not good then they should stop drinking. Maybe she needs professional help? Or something you can do with help from friends. I don't believe that drinking less will solve the problem. Out with the alcohol and let something else fill your mind.
 

squeak

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323
I think she's scared if she takes that step she'll not be able to get back to alcohol.
That would probably be the best outcome.
I've never felt like abstinence is dealing with a problem, it's more like putting off dealing with it indefinitely.
That is the whole point and it can buy 5 decades of life. I have met patients who said they didn't care one bit about the extra time if they couldn't drink alcohol.

I am pretty rusty on this, but I believe the rule of thumb back then was that a man can drink about 750-ml of hard liquor per day for max 5-years before liver failure is pretty much guaranteed; women about half of that. I understand the latter is not politically correct but there are apparently major gender differences in the amount of abuse the liver can take.
...very different cultures!
Denmark has a culture not altogether different from its fellow Scandinavian nations and yet a much more southern attitude towards alcohol. When I was a child, I briefly collected colorful labels for beer bottles, because there were a gazillion small Danish breweries in addition to Carlsberg and Tuborg, who swallowed the whole lot up decades before micro-breweries (re-)emerged. Carlsberg has a museum in Frederiksberg enclosed by Copenhagen. One of the exhibits mention that in the old days, the workers were entitled to ~2L beer during the working day. Any bizarre and true story is that Denmark at one point had an outbreak of scurvy among heavy beer drinkers. Turns out with 30 beers per day, there is no craving for additional calories and the breweries had stopped adding vitamin c to the beer...
Systembolaget in Sweden, Vinmonopolet in Norway, Alko in Finland ..... also Iceland haave a sales monopole
I admire loads of things about Sweden, but this is not one of them. I guess I am more live and let live in attitude. When I was a child, Copenhagen was full of drunken Swedes.
The profit goes back to the state and into the wellfare system.
Like tobacco taxes, I find there is a huge conflict of interest, because states and making money off habit that are harmful to most people. The French actually once made an analysis of the impact of smoking on state finances. The conclusion was that the state made a ton of money from tobacco taxes and surprisingly saved retirement funds to boot, because heavy smokers died prematurely. I would certainly consider France to have an excellent welfare system, in particular health care tends to rank really high, but this did seem a tad cynical.
But if a person relize that the alcohol is not good then they should stop drinking.
You are obviously right but most cannot. That is the whole point. You clearly don't possess an addictive personality. Neither do I with exception of saxophones and mouthpieces, where I have discovered a bizarre and disappointing lack of self-constraint. I won't profess to fully comprehend but it seems like a Jekyll and Hyde thing.
 

jbtsax

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Beautiful Springville, Utah USA
Since the discussion has gone more deeply into the topic. This is a well known guide for self evaluation.
(There is a joke version for us "thinkaholics" who think too much which substitutes drinking with "thinking".)

Here are 20 Questions designed to help you determine how alcohol has affected your life.

1. Do you lose time from work due to drinking?
2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?
3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people?
4. Is drinking affecting your reputation?
5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?
6. Have you got into financial difficulties as a result of drinking?
7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?
8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare?
9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking?
10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily?
11. Do you want a drink the next morning?
12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty sleeping?
13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?
14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business?
15. Do you drink to escape from worries or trouble?
16. Do you drink alone?
17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of drinking?
18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking?
19. Do you drink to build up your self confidence?
20. Have you ever been to a hospital or institution on account of your drinking?
 
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thomsax

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Sweden
I had to deal with this when I worked. The first times was hard. I should ask or tell a friend/coworker that I assumed they had alcohol addiction. There were lots of signs before the talk, so I was 100 % sure. When the queston was asked it's often 1. "denial". 2. "acting out". 3. "sadness/regret". When it was calm so it was possible to talk normal I offered a professional treatment at a treatment home paid by the employer. Usually around 30 days. If the employeed accepted the offer it was just to make some calls. The employeed had 80% of thier montly salary during the treatment. Just one coworker that could go back to his work. During the treatment they discovered that is often the job that is a big part of the problem.

Why do musiscians have free beer/wine? Insane. I don't serve a construction worker and other persons that are working at a place. I was clear about that eveyone that worked at a place should be sober. I think that's how I got my bad reputation.
 

thomsax

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Sweden
When I was a child, Copenhagen was full of drunken Swedes.
When I was young and worked on ferry between Landskrona and Tuborg I was so sick and tired of the danes; "big eaters", beerdrinking cigarrsmokers (Cecil) .... . I often asked myself. "Why don't they have a better life?" We are all suffering from diffent "deseases" and bad behavior. ;)
 

AndyB

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325
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Durham, NC, USA
Have a friend in France on the cusp of admitting she's an alcoholic but she's making excuses for not getting help.
I think she's scared if she takes that step she'll not be able to get back to alcohol.
She's dual nationality.
Where can she get help over there? What kind of help?
I think your friend may need to first discover for herself whether alcohol is the root problem, or whether there is another problem leading to the alcohol. Sometimes treating the cause is more effective than treating the symptom. Maybe some counselling would help before taking the giant step into an alcohol treatment program. That would seem to be less drastic and less traumatic for her as a starting point. Good luck. You seem to be a caring friend.
 

squeak

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323
When I was young and worked on ferry between Landskrona and Tuborg I was so sick and tired of the danes; "big eaters", beerdrinking cigarrsmokers (Cecil) .... . I often asked myself. "Why don't they have a better life?" We are all suffering from diffent "deseases" and bad behavior. ;)
You are right. Those were folks going on the ferry, because taxation of cigarettes and alcohol was greatly discounted. Effectively, you are making my point that it a duplicitous area for governments to get involved, because they end up benefitting from behavior that is deleterious to the health of their citizens.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes. I did preface it rather nicely, by stating that there are lots of things that I admire about Sweden, but Systembolaget is not among them. Anyone who grew up in the greater Copenhagen area experienced the same thing. It was just a fact of the times - sorry.
 
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jonf

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Betelgeuse
Why do musiscians have free beer/wine? Insane. I don't serve a construction worker and other persons that are working at a place. I was clear about that eveyone that worked at a place should be sober. I think that's how I got my bad reputation.
I enjoy a drink, particularly wine, and in my youth I drank quite a lot of beer. Never while playing, though. Apart from the fact that it ruins your sax, I'm not the best of players when sober, and I'm completely rubbish when I've had a drink.
 

thomsax

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4,439
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Sweden
You are right. Those were folks going on the ferry, because taxation of cigarettes and alcohol was greatly discounted. Effectively, you are making my point that it a duplicitous area for governments to get involved, because they end up benefitting from behavior that is deleterious to the health of their citizens.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes. I did preface it rather nicely, by stating that there are lots of things that I admire about Sweden, but Systembolaget is not among them. Anyone who grew up in the greater Copenhagen area experienced the same thing. It was just a fact of the times - sorry.
I live close to the town Ystad and the danes from the danish island Bornholm use to come over and shop at Systembolaget. They think the swedish and german beer is much better. But I don't like Systembolaget as a company. To control the alcohol market is good for the public health. And that was what EU thought as well in the EU negotiations back in 1994. Some contries in EU are looking at the Nordic way to control the alcohol market. But I doubt France, Italy and Spain will have something like "Systembolaget".
 

Dave Dunn

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197
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South Australia
I had to deal with this when I worked. The first times was hard. I should ask or tell a friend/coworker that I assumed they had alcohol addiction. There were lots of signs before the talk, so I was 100 % sure. When the queston was asked it's often 1. "denial". 2. "acting out". 3. "sadness/regret". When it was calm so it was possible to talk normal I offered a professional treatment at a treatment home paid by the employer. Usually around 30 days. If the employeed accepted the offer it was just to make some calls. The employeed had 80% of thier montly salary during the treatment. Just one coworker that could go back to his work. During the treatment they discovered that is often the job that is a big part of the problem.

Why do musiscians have free beer/wine? Insane. I don't serve a construction worker and other persons that are working at a place. I was clear about that eveyone that worked at a place should be sober. I think that's how I got my bad reputation.
On that subject, I was once in charge of an employee who was drinking all day, but very functional, up to a point. As it turned out, if one of the other employees came back drunk from lunch, I could give an official warning, on the third warning they'd be fired. However, I could do nothing about the employee drinking Southern Comfort all day, every day, as alcoholism is a health issue, and you can't give warnings or fire people for health issues. The employer offers no help though, as a manager, you're officially required to ignore the problem, and make sure that the employee is not put in a position where they can hurt themselves or others. It's a pity something like you describe wasn't in place back then, her life might have turned out differently.
 

squeak

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323
They think the swedish and german beer is much better.
A tiny minority to say the least given the sheer difference in choice and price.
To control the alcohol market is good for the public health.
Prohibition certainly wasn't good for public health and I doubt heavy taxation with government profits from alcohol sales provides a solution. The wealthy don't care about the price and the poor end up destitute to finance their drinking habit. I would much rather see efforts go toward education and improving living conditions for those most likely to seek solace in alcohol.
 

AndyB

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Durham, NC, USA
Prohibition certainly wasn't good for public health ....
In a way, I agree but after stumbling upon some of the history behind the alcohol problem I had to rethink my stance. I don't have the exact stats in front of me right now, but sometime around 1817 there was a survey in the United States that indicated that something like 7 out of 10 American men went to sleep drunk every night of their adult life. That seems bad enough that something had to change. It's hard to imagine the alcohol epidemic ever being that bad.
 

DavidUK

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Near Lutterworth, Leics.
She fell down the stairs a few days ago, fractured T12 vertebra, currently post-op in hospital.
Alcohol also weakens bone structure we've since found. She's told the hospital about her drinking.

:(
 

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