Saxophones Advice on buying a saxophone - Weltklang

In the 70s my first SLR camera was a Zenith made in Russia which was good enough to learn on, I wouldn’t have said it was ‘faulty’.
Dixon’s sold a similar looking camera for a few pounds more and the shop assistant was explaining the differences to me until I started to lift the sticker with their name and reveal the ‘Zenith’ underneath.
I've had a few Russian and DDR cameras too, and they can be most, erm, variable, the Practika ones as I recall often used (very) mild steel for some components that would ideally be somewhat hardened, and consequently fail after some usage. they are all a bit of a lottery really.
There was a great story that they did a snap inspection at the Kyev camera plant and the 'commissar' after a quick look condemned the whole production batch which was swiftly thrown out and unceremoniously bulldozed into the local landfill tip !
( I'm the last person to indulge in the currently fashionable 'Russian bashing' by the way ! 😉 )
 
I have had 2 or 3 weltklangs through my hands in the dim and distant past, and can assure you they were rubbish ! The first one was 20 quid from some kid ( who with hindsight may well have nicked it )

There were a lot of nicked Weltklangs floating around London back in the day. The dead giveaway was a bare metal strip under the serial number where the crudely engraved letters 'ILEA' had been filed out. I had one chancer try to sell me one with the letters intact...said it was his name.
I have a feeling I may still even have an old ILEA Weltklang in the workshop, or bits of it anyway. We used to hang on to the scrappers because there was a high demand for spare parts - especially side F# keys.
 
"Why inflict a sax... which has a big, robust Tonality like a vintage JK but can be had for half the price of one and once put in good shape by a tech will be pretty reliable and have acceptable action and intonation....

...on oneself ?"

Or...

"why would someone who has only had experience with modern asian horns and has limited finances...but has wanted to dabble in vintage...want to make an investment in a relatively inexpensive vintage horn which happened to cross their path...which possesses a classic-old school tonality and vibe and once set up will be pretty reliable...so they can experience a different kind of sax paradigm...?"

(one can argue these become rhetorical questions, when rephrased, no ?)

I believe the poster was interested in learning to play on it not an intermediate or advanced player looking for a challenge..

I agree a experinced player may want to try older / vintage horns in a search for a different tone or even a different playing experience.
I started on a B&H clarinet, a 10m tenor and a Buffet alto all used all and the cheapest my father could find. All gave me mechanical and intonation problems. But because of the problems it allowed me to meet techs and players and hang with a player community at a very young age. Knowledge and experience gained priceless.

I bought two S20s over the past five years and invested in them. One had a complete overhaul by one of the best Techs in the States. It played the way it should but still had wonky tuning that required me to compensate for it when playing. Were they special yes much different then my Series III but they messed me up when I jumped back to a horn that plalyed in tune. I took a finacial hit on those two horns but part of the journey.
 
I like late Weltklangs beacause they were posible to buy for younger players that didn't had a lot of money and today they strokes the thing called nostalgia. As I wrote earlier it was a fun and happy time to play punk bari on a Weltklang baritone sax.
In the right hands a late wellkept Weltklang can sound good. In the hand of less good player a late and wellused Weltklang can sound terrible.

Today (50 years later) I'm ashamed I played horns that was made by oppressed workers and the money we paid for our saxes went to a terrible polity. My ego was stronger back then. I've been in most communist countries and I knew what was going on behind iron curtain.

I've done my homework and I stay out of buying saxes from countries with IMO cloudy polity. I prefer an old Indiana student sax to a new ultra low price sax.

We use to react when we see a low price "fake" sax. But a we applauds an ultra low price sax made in the same country.

"Det är synd om människan".
 
We use to react when we see a low price "fake" sax. But a we applauds an ultra low price sax made in the same country.
We still do. There are a number of posts on here about counterfeit horns.
Copies, however, have been around for a very long time. Back in the '60s I think it was fairier to say 'influenced by' - but many modern Ultra-Cheap horns are almost, if not entirely, copies of well-known models.
I had a conversation about this with 'Mr Yanagisawa' at the Musik Messe in Frankfurt many years ago, and asked him how he felt about these obvious knock-offs. He wasn't that bothered - Yanagisawa was in a completely different segment of the market, and that anything that got people playing saxes (especially ones that felt like Yanis in the hands) was a good thing.
 
I have a feeling I may still even have an old ILEA Weltklang in the workshop, or bits of it anyway. We used to hang on to the scrappers because there was a high demand for spare parts - especially side F# keys.
Yep, found one. It's a late '70s/early '80s model.

ilea.webp


And here's what the rest of the body looks like.
We had dozens and dozens of these scrappers - most of which would have been written off due to severe damage (bends, dents, crushing etc.). Sometimes it was possible to swap out body parts to make a 'new' horn but most of the time these old bangers served as donors for all the bits that used to drop off and go missing. You can't see it in this shot but there's half as much again missing from the other side of the body.

scrap Weltklang.webp
 
I don't know how mods tolerate tangents on this forum - I went on one earlier in this thread about what people in the Communist East might have been playing on DDR instruments way back when, and suggested a compilation of Jazz from Behind the Iron Curtain which youtube dragged up. Well, I bought a copy, and having driven 6 hours today, I am more acquainted with it. On the track I link here, no Weltklangs (or any sax at all - what a tangent) but if anyone fancies a Hungarian Viola-and-bass-clarinet workout from 1967, here it is. But - if you stay for the next track on the compilation 'Skandinavia - Manfred Ludwig Sextet' this is from DDR in 1963. There are some tuneful trumpet passages, and some energetic sax playing where intonation is occasionally interesting. Getting back on topic, I wonder if it was on a Weltklang...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APq0-VmXLNk&list=OLAK5uy_mez5VrLdMb21cJDoNLfWnGmVdN9jwKxRM&index=18
 
I don't know how mods tolerate tangents on this forum - I went on one earlier in this thread about what people in the Communist East might have been playing on DDR instruments way back when, and suggested a compilation of Jazz from Behind the Iron Curtain which youtube dragged up. Well, I bought a copy, and having driven 6 hours today, I am more acquainted with it. On the track I link here, no Weltklangs (or any sax at all - what a tangent) but if anyone fancies a Hungarian Viola-and-bass-clarinet workout from 1967, here it is. But - if you stay for the next track on the compilation 'Skandinavia - Manfred Ludwig Sextet' this is from DDR in 1963. There are some tuneful trumpet passages, and some energetic sax playing where intonation is occasionally interesting. Getting back on topic, I wonder if it was on a Weltklang...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APq0-VmXLNk&list=OLAK5uy_mez5VrLdMb21cJDoNLfWnGmVdN9jwKxRM&index=18
I listened to all 27. Some interesting playing on more than one track as mentioned above. Still good music. I can only imagine the challenging journey those players had.
 
On the one hand it is cool you are sharing this....very interesting stuff....

...on the other....

...I am pretty sure this thread has been beaten to death 3x over....everything said on subject has been said, repeatedly......so cannot say it thrilled me to see it at the top of the "New"..... again......:rolleyes:
I'm sorry. When I was a teenager (in the 80s) I developed a bit of a fascination with the Eastern Bloc, largely as a result of being skint and having been given bits and bobs of weird stuff that no-one else seemed to want (Zenit camera from St Petersburg as mentioned somewhere upthread, and an MZ motorcycle from the hard-to-spell Zschopau in DDR, spring to mind). I think the interest was certainly naive and romantic, having made friends with Poles who came over here when that became possible and having found out more about life there. But the allure of this kind of mystery place where no-one was quite sure what was going on was quite a thing. And that was probably coupled with a kind of vanity / inverted snobbery, that (especially with my friends in the MZ club) we appreciated something that most people overlooked. I think that might be one attraction to the saxophones, but that could just be me projecting my peculiar psyche across the internet.

Thanks for your interest anyway, folks. And if you are bored and want a lump of 'east' to look at, I really do recommend 'The Lives of Others'. (It's pretty grim in spots, and 'Goodbye Lenin' might be required to bring you up again afterwards.)
 
On the one hand it is cool you are sharing this....very interesting stuff....

...on the other....

...I am pretty sure this thread has been beaten to death 3x over....everything said on subject has been said, repeatedly......so cannot say it thrilled me to see it at the top of the "New"..... again......:rolleyes:
If you're bored with it, click the 'Ignore' button. No need to comment if you don't want to.
 
I'm sorry. [...] And that was probably coupled with a kind of vanity / inverted snobbery, that (especially with my friends in the MZ club) we appreciated something that most people overlooked. I think that might be one attraction to the saxophones, but that could just be me projecting my peculiar psyche across the internet. [...] Thanks for your interest anyway, folks.
There is no need to apologize. You are reflecting the environment where the Weltklang was made, which played a part into its fabrication.
When I was a teenager (in the 80s) I developed a bit of a fascination with the Eastern Bloc, largely as a result of being skint and having been given bits and bobs of weird stuff that no-one else seemed to want (Zenit camera from St Petersburg as mentioned somewhere upthread, and an MZ motorcycle from the hard-to-spell Zschopau in DDR, spring to mind).
in the 1990's with 35mm and 2.25 inch photography doing wedding photos. At First Indian Baptist Church, Gallup, NM, the pastor was encouraging common law couples to officially tie the knot and get married. As an advance hobbyist I did the wedding ceremony and reception photos, made a multi-flash setup with my fabricated stands, wiring, using the most powerful portable Vivitar flashes available. (Even without umbrella reflectors - flashes were only powerful enough to use them direct, there was still sufficient modeling effect through lighting to produce decent single and group photos.) Couples would reimburse me for my film and processing costs, I would give them the negatives at the end. I did about 6 - 8 weddings.
There was an on-line camera shop that is no longer in business, who sold Russian cameras and photography equipment. I purchased a new Russian made photo-flash light meter, but it was defective (dead on arrival), so I returned it for a refund. Spent a little more and bought an American made one.

So, it was my only experience with Iron Curtain made products. But based on that, I could understand why there might be quality issues with the Weltklang saxes.
 
I'm sorry. When I was a teenager (in the 80s) I developed a bit of a fascination with the Eastern Bloc, largely as a result of being skint and having been given bits and bobs of weird stuff that no-one else seemed to want (Zenit camera from St Petersburg as mentioned somewhere upthread, and an MZ motorcycle from the hard-to-spell Zschopau in DDR, spring to mind). I think the interest was certainly naive and romantic, having made friends with Poles who came over here when that became possible and having found out more about life there. But the allure of this kind of mystery place where no-one was quite sure what was going on was quite a thing. And that was probably coupled with a kind of vanity / inverted snobbery, that (especially with my friends in the MZ club) we appreciated something that most people overlooked. I think that might be one attraction to the saxophones, but that could just be me projecting my peculiar psyche across the internet.

Thanks for your interest anyway, folks. And if you are bored and want a lump of 'east' to look at, I really do recommend 'The Lives of Others'. (It's pretty grim in spots, and 'Goodbye Lenin' might be required to bring you up again afterwards.)
This post triggered two memories for me, one sort of ongoing, the other from over 40 years ago.

MZ - 'Rrrrrrrring, ding ding ding ding ding'

Eastern bloc stuff - when I first lived in London as a student, back in 1984, it was a revelation to me, as a youth from a Northern industrial town, to explorde the seething metropolis. I went to the London School of Economics, so the Aldwych/Kingsway/High Holborn area was one of the first I got to know. Holborn is now a vastly expensive area, on the borders of the retail and the financial/legal districts, but in 1984 it had a couple of really strange features. One was there were still a couple of undeveloped bomb sites from the second workld war, apparently bombed buildings which had ownership disputes. Another was the Russian Shop, with its CCCP branding on the fascia, where they sold all manner of Russian cameras and electronics. It was really odd, and felt very out of place. I remember there being a very tall, thin woman serving in there, with an initially rather fierce demeanor, but a twinkle in her eye and if you chatted, she was actually very friendly. I think she was bored, there were never many customers, and one time I was there with my old Practica and we had a long chat about M42 lenses. She tried to get me to buy a Zenit Photosniper outfit, which to be honest, I'd have bought if I had any money. They also had some of the most outrageous mirror lenses I have ever seen, including a 1100mm focal length one. About a million years later I came across one, and I bought it. It's in the pic below, on the right is a Canon 50mm f/1.8 lens, for scale.
MTO 1000 1100mm lens.webp
 
I'm sorry. When I was a teenager (in the 80s) I developed a bit of a fascination with the Eastern Bloc, largely as a result of being skint and having been given bits and bobs of weird stuff that no-one else seemed to want (Zenit camera from St Petersburg as mentioned somewhere upthread, and an MZ motorcycle from the hard-to-spell Zschopau in DDR, spring to mind). I think the interest was certainly naive and romantic, having made friends with Poles who came over here when that became possible and having found out more about life there. But the allure of this kind of mystery place where no-one was quite sure what was going on was quite a thing. And that was probably coupled with a kind of vanity / inverted snobbery, that (especially with my friends in the MZ club) we appreciated something that most people overlooked. I think that might be one attraction to the saxophones, but that could just be me projecting my peculiar psyche across the internet.

Thanks for your interest anyway, folks. And if you are bored and want a lump of 'east' to look at, I really do recommend 'The Lives of Others'. (It's pretty grim in spots, and 'Goodbye Lenin' might be required to bring you up again afterwards.)
You didn't have to explain yourself, I applaud your interest.

I remember growing up, I'd read National Geographic (OK initially to see boobs, but inevitably even an early teen boy's attention is caught by article titles....)....and there would usually be ONE article on someplace, somewhere in the USSR.

They intrigued me, those articles....because they usually portrayed very hard life conditions (portrayed with a very, very jaundiced-eye western media lens - not that I was aware of that, then), living under fear, seemingly backwards in industry and technology.. often a family, society or micro-society always seemingly on the brink.
Yet is struck me that, usually, they would end reporting on some party or celebration or gathering of family or neighborhood or municipality...and there were actually portrayals of people laughing, smiling, enjoying themselves...seemingly in complete contradiction to what the article had been reporting.

Even at that age it struck me...the human condition...how even just a bit of joy or calm or connection or gratitude ...dare I say an unextinguishable flame ....could be found/extracted by we humans in what would seem to be the most dire contexts.

I never particularly thought we, both here and in UK, greater degree here, perhaps, right now, today.....would be experiencing that very thing in our own lifetimes. We do not have to 'imagine' it, here, now....
But being in deep what we are in currently, I often think back to those old articles and the people there, and now can understand it much more clearly.

So, glad you responded with what you wrote above.

So easy for westerners to just take the media bait, cold war-influenced back then, something quite different and threatening influencing, now...and not think about "them" or sympathize or even be curious about any connection we have/had with those societies and fellow humans.

I know that might not be exactly what sparked your interest, but nevertheless....your side-hobby immersed yourself in a connection to something most people would never have given a thought to, so....Kudos to you.
 
This post triggered two memories for me, one sort of ongoing, the other from over 40 years ago.

MZ - 'Rrrrrrrring, ding ding ding ding ding'

Eastern bloc stuff - when I first lived in London as a student, back in 1984, it was a revelation to me, as a youth from a Northern industrial town, to explorde the seething metropolis. I went to the London School of Economics, so the Aldwych/Kingsway/High Holborn area was one of the first I got to know. Holborn is now a vastly expensive area, on the borders of the retail and the financial/legal districts, but in 1984 it had a couple of really strange features. One was there were still a couple of undeveloped bomb sites from the second workld war, apparently bombed buildings which had ownership disputes. Another was the Russian Shop, with its CCCP branding on the fascia, where they sold all manner of Russian cameras and electronics. It was really odd, and felt very out of place. I remember there being a very tall, thin woman serving in there, with an initially rather fierce demeanor, but a twinkle in her eye and if you chatted, she was actually very friendly. I think she was bored, there were never many customers, and one time I was there with my old Practica and we had a long chat about M42 lenses. She tried to get me to buy a Zenit Photosniper outfit, which to be honest, I'd have bought if I had any money. They also had some of the most outrageous mirror lenses I have ever seen, including a 1100mm focal length one. About a million years later I came across one, and I bought it. It's in the pic below, on the right is a Canon 50mm f/1.8 lens, for scale. View attachment 32631
I have a book called 'Discover Rewarding Photography' published in 1971 by the people who imported Russian optical gear to the UK. (Being a photography book from 1971, some of the attraction mirrored Jaye's experience with National Geographic). Your big lens appears on p47 in technicolour, with the caption 'MTO1000A folds up light rays so that this relatively short-mount lens gives the same magnification as a conventional but cumbersome 1000mm lens. A true Olympic Stadium performer'. The previous fig shows a close-up of the Big Ben clock face, with caption '...allows you to fill the frame with Nelson's face on top of his column, or a goalkeeper from the stands.' Given the way the Soviet economy worked, that goalkeeper was probably a euphemistic stand-in for ' ...that dissident and his associates who you have been assigned to document'. Then again, it was the DDR who were really good at that sort of thing (and even they couldn't make communism work, as I saw on a recent internet meme my Polish mate sent me), whereas the Russians arrested to quota.

I have a big band practice on Sunday pm; I have a lift, or I would go back to school days and strap my baritone case across the back of my remaining MZ (then, it was a tenor on a moped) and Rrrrrinnngg - ding - ding my way down to the church hall.
 
A used Weltklang baritone to low A was a good sax for me back in the late 70's. And so was also the new B&S Blue Label tenor I bought in 1979.. Many fine saxplayer here in Sweden started to play on saxes like these. Can an aspiring saxplayer buy and start on a Weltklang, Amati, Conn, Indiana, Bundy II, Conn Shooting Star, King 615 .... tenors in good playing condition?

I got a call from an old friend who have thoughts to start to play again. "My heart goes boom, boom, boom ..... ". I'm going to offer him one of my saxes from the "shame shelf". It's a Dörfler & Jörka built "Diamond " tenor in ok condition. Install new pads, corks, felts, shellack, alcohol lamp .... .

I was so owerwhelmed to get a call from an aspiring RockSax honker so I made a bad video of the the sax so he could have a look. Some dent's and dings ... but in the same league as a Weltklang. Keep On Honkin' !
View: https://youtu.be/yA87yzDXqTo?si=8n5VJJc-99n5hUNV
 

Social

New! Social Feeds

Look out for the navigation icon:

Follow CafeSaxophone

Latest Song of the Month

Trending

Forum statistics

Topics
32,044
Messages
577,827
Members
8,111
Latest member
Simonob
Back
Top Bottom