Saxophones Advice on buying a saxophone - Weltklang

[Colin the Bear]

My Chinese Startone Baritone cost the same in the 2020's as my Weltklang did in the 1980's. Both brand new.

Currently a used playable Weltklang baritone costs about the same as a new Startone. No brainer really.

 

[jonf]

Oooh, the numbers game (again). Sure, I’ll play...
I’m not sure I’ve ever counted how many I’ve worked on – so let’s have a go, just for a laugh.
I was contracted to the ILEA to repair school instruments for at least ten years – and each week we’d pick up a vanload of instruments. Let’s be conservative and say that there were typically 5 Weltklangs in each delivery. Let’s call the school year 36 weeks.
That’s 5x36, which makes 180. Over ten years that's nigh on 2000 Weltklangs.
Add in the examples in private hands and the schools that carried on using my services after the ILEA folded – and then add on the 40 or so years since the ‘80s.
Goodness me.



Actually they got a bit better towards the end of their run. I made that point before in another discussion but it doesn’t seem to have sunk in. And before that they were always bad – until you hit the ‘vintage’ models.



What was that about flat out calling a brand a piece of crap?

Let’s pick it apart. Late Weltklang vs a G4M.

The first thing people often say is that the Chinese horn is lightweight. In fact the Weltklangs were considerably lighter. Not much heavier than a 20 series Yamaha.
Score 1 for the G4M

Body build quality on both horns is sub-par, both sharing much the same issues.
Call that a draw.

Shedding parts. Common to both horns but rather less prevalent on the G4M. Chinese horns tend to pop guard stays – Weltklangs could shed pretty much anything at any time, especially the pillars that held the bars on which the stack keys were mounted. You can carry on playing a horn that's popped a guard stay but when the stacks start flopping around you're dead in the water.
Call that a win for the G4M.

Key quality on both horns have issues. The Weltklang had better finished barrel ends, but that’s about it. Remedial work is much harder on the Weltklang and the use of alloy rods was problematic due to wear.
Another win for the G4M.

Pads. This is a no-brainer. The Weltklang pads lasted forever but they were awful and extremely difficult to manipulate. And they made the keys feel squishy under the fingers.
A clear win for the G4M.

Ergonomics/feel. The Weltklang was designed as a student horn – it was never anything more than clunky. The G4M is a copy of an expensive pro horn.
Huge win for the G4M.

Playability. Chalk and cheese really. Even if the G4M had only 50% (it’s typically very much higher than that) of the playability of the horn it was copied from, it’s way ahead of the best the Weltklang can manage. Tuning’s better on the G4M too.
A slam-dunk to the G4M.

Economics. To get the best out of both horns you’re going to need to spend some money – and as it’s a used/new comparison it gets a bit complicated. Even more so if you consider that you can pick up a lightly-used G4M alto on eBay for a touch under £200 on any day of the week.
But in terms of what you get after you’ve spent money on tweaks/repairs the G4M still wins.

On the numbers alone it’s a 8 to 1 win for the G4M. Sure, you might argue a couple of points if you were that desperate but the Chinese horn is always going to kick the Weltklang in the nuts.
And if you wanted something rather better you’d only need to go as far as £450 and you’d be looking at a very tidy used 700 series Jupiter or a TJ Revolution – neither of which will likely need anything other than a cursory tweak or two, if that.
Based on all of the above there’s just no sense or logic in even thinking that a late model Weltklang is in any way a viable proposition.

I agree with pretty much all of this, particularly the ergonomics/playability bit. On economics, in real terms the G4M is far cheaper than the Weltklang was when it was new, and with a bit of patience, could easily be bought for £150.

 

[jonf]

My Chinese Startone Baritone cost the same in the 2020's as my Weltklang did in the 1980's. Both brand new.

Currently a used playable Weltklang baritone costs about the same as a new Startone. No brainer really.

And let me guess. The Startone is far better to play than the Weltklang?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Yes. There's a thread about it.

 

[thomsax]

My Chinese Startone Baritone cost the same in the 2020's as my Weltklang did in the 1980's. Both brand new.

Currently a used playable Weltklang baritone costs about the same as a new Startone. No brainer really.

Yes, a new Startone is 14 290 s e k. Buy,buy, buy .... I already have baris.

 

[Ghr9204]

This has been a very informative topic, with many thoughtful points to help a prospective buyer in making selections. Thanks for @Stephen Howard and @JayeNM for pointing out factors to consider based on experiences in servicing these.

Although there are Weltklangs that play, there are other choices in the market that are consistently better. One is better off not to take a potential gamble and go with a consistent player, heavy duty enough and with quality components so that when serviced, it stays serviced for a long time, give a lot of troublefree miles.

If one is happy with their Weltklangs, then continue to march on. For a low time or no time saxist, pass these up for more proven choices.

Anyway for what it is worth, this is what I gather.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I agree with pretty much all of this, particularly the ergonomics/playability bit. On economics, in real terms the G4M is far cheaper than the Weltklang was when it was new, and with a bit of patience, could easily be bought for £150.

Absolute bargain. Hard put to buy a mouthpiece for that price these days.

 

[thomsax]

Play your saxes and enjoy them.

To have all the fun (social, freedom, ...) to play the saxophone we need saxes. We have different reasons why we are playing differnt saxes: financial, ethical and moral- ,emotional- ..... reasons. The saxophone is just one big compromise.

I like old Weltklang, Amati, Conn Mexico ... student saxes because when I played them back in the 70's it was connected to "fun" and "freedom". To learn/ play my music was fun. And a low price sax was the tool to have fun.

When we talk talk about "low price" saxes we keep in mind that there are always someone else that pays for the "low price" and "bargains". Without those persons, no low price, ultra cheap, bargain saxes.

So when I see a new ultra cheap baritone saxophone for 14 290 s e k I wonder: What is the real price and who (and how) is paying the difference?

"Keep On Honkin' "

 

[JayeNM]

Oooh, the numbers game (again). Sure, I’ll play...

My prior reply was in no way meant as any sort of challenge.
No game to play here.
At times you take someone appearing with opinion contrary to your own as some sort of affront.

What I said is no game, just simply communicating my experiences.
We have been thru this before with Welt and other brands. It gets sorta old.

You lean towards trashing 'em.
My experience is notably different.

That's all...no need to come back as if it is a competition.

If I see a comment or comments which contradicts my experience, my tendency will be to reply that my experience has not been the same.
Nothing deeper here than that.

One last time, for posterity more than anything else -

my opinion of these, which I have stated for years, based on years of experience, also based on the reality that I USED to intentionally BUY these to refurb, so searched a much wider selection than most people would ever have experienced, boils down to this:

Q- Are they a brand which should appear on a short list of potential purchases ? IOW should I be looking FOR one ?

A- Probably not, given the plethora of half-decent budget-priced used saxes on the market today

Q- So they are worthless junk ?

A- Not at all. I have done enough of them to say this, with confidence:

Pre-80's ones, once attended to by a tech and put into good play shape, will serve pretty well. In the 80's the Soviet Bloc was on its last legs, materials procurement got iffy, this era of horn lacked precision and robustness to the build. Although even those could be tended to and made somewhat reliable, keeping to those before them as a rule yields a better result:

Their Tone is massive (something which NO BUDGET ASIAN SAX can touch, even remotely), intonation is acceptable.
Ergos not slick, but for someone up to an intermediate level player, or someone who never really desires to play lightning-fast passages and licks... they would see no difference between the action of a Welt in GOOD tack ...and most other vintage horns.

Conclusion - Maybe don't necessarily go LOOKING for one...BUT...should ONE CROSS YOUR PATH AT A GOOD PRICE -

1) project condition: $150-200 alto, $200-300 Tenor.... DO NOT DISMISS IT OUTRIGHT - buying it and investing $150-250 is by no means stupid. You will get your money worth.

2) guaranteed play condition $400-500 Alto, $400-600 Tenor - buying it you will have a decent enough horn, quite playable, quite reliable, and it won't fall apart on you like a new asian cheapie will in relatively short order...

3) If you find a Baritone or Soprano, again, pre-80's...as I have stated, for some reason those were consistently the best voices that the company produced in their existence... MOST aren't just "mediocre but acceptable"...most are downright "pretty darn good" horns.
Some (half or so) I have experienced ....were absolute MONSTERS.....

(When discussing Welt it is always gonna be an equation of price point vs. what they can deliver)

Is ....anything.... I stated above.... somehow outrageous ?

If anyone thinks it is...I would posit that opinion is not based upon solid foundation, but rather quite colored with subjectivity.

The west thinks of (and has always thought of) the old Eastern Europe as being neanderthalic in many respects, it puffed us up as somehow superior - ignoring the reality that they had industries and ability which, for a while, was not anything to sneeze at.

 

[Ghr9204]

Oooh, the numbers game (again). Sure, I’ll play...

At times you take someone appearing with opinion contrary to your own as some sort of affront.

Handbags at dawn, fellows. (Just joshing.) 😉

 

[JayeNM]

Handbags at dawn, fellows. (Just joshing.) 😉

I'll do Pillows only....

 

[Stephen Howard]

Their Tone is massive (something which NO BUDGET ASIAN SAX can touch, even remotely), intonation is acceptable.
Ergos not slick, but for someone up to an intermediate level player, or someone who never really desires to play lightning-fast passages and licks... they would see no difference between the action of a Welt in GOOD tack ...and most other vintage horns.

Stripping away all the irrelevant puffery leaves us with the above response to my 8-point comparison to a Chinese horn.
As I said in that post, one might argue a point or two if desperate - and despite your rattling on about subjectivity your single defence is an entirely subjective opinion on tone. I should point out that it doesn't take years of workbench experience to reach such a conclusion - even a very modest player can compare the tone of two horns and state a preference.
And, well, that's it. At this point there's really nothing else to say - apart from...

Pre-80's ones, once attended to by a tech and put into good play shape, will serve pretty well. In the 80's the Soviet Bloc was on its last legs, materials procurement got iffy, this era of horn lacked precision and robustness to the build. Although even those could be tended to and made somewhat reliable, keeping to those before them as a rule yields a better result:

I really don't know why you keep repeating this misinformation - so here are the FACTS (pardon the childish caps but you seem to feel that they lend comments some authority...).

The crappy late model Weltklang was in production from the early 1970s and had a run of approximately 25 years - give or take a few years when production ceased and remaining stock continued to be sold. There were minor changes to the design over those years, and for the masochists who wish to entertain one of these horns I would very strongly advise sticking to the later models (early '80s onwards) because some of the build issues that plagued them had been addressed. Only some, mind.

 

[Vlad]

I have had 2 or 3 weltklangs through my hands in the dim and distant past, and can assure you they were rubbish ! The first one was 20 quid from some kid ( who with hindsight may well have nicked it ) This was the Punk era and the weltklang was just about adequate for the kind of racket we were creating in the name of 'music', however soon got dumped in favour of something else as soon as it was available ( I sprayed it metallic green as I recall 🙂 ) TBH I can't see why anyone would buy one unless it was a case of 'that or nothing' and it was similarly dirt cheap.
As regards former Soviet & allied bloc manufactured goods in general they were often, sorry to say, very sub standard quality. This goes for all sorts..tools, cameras, instruments, whatever. I say this from experience and without prejudice of course

 

[jonf]

My two pennyworth, having had both Weltklangs and numerous cheapo saxes made in the large continent of Asia. Although I do have a fondness for Weltklangs, in a 'defensive weapon/nostalgia' sense, there is no way they are as good all round as a well made sax built in Asia. You simply can't assert that the entire output of a massive continent is crap, and in my experience, some saxes from some parts of Asia have been poor, others decent. My curved soprano was made in mainland China and it's a keeper. As a sax to play, it's better than my vintage Buescher. A Gear4Music or Sakkusu sax (made in China) which has had a basic set-up will play far better than a Weltklang. Some older Sakkusu saxes, made in another country in Asia (Taiwan) were excellent. Anyone who can't get a decent tone from one of these, needs to look to their technique rather than the sax.

 

[Tonehole]

My two pennyworth, having had both Weltklangs and numerous cheapo saxes made in the large continent of Asia. Although I do have a fondness for Weltklangs, in a 'defensive weapon/nostalgia' sense, there is no way they are as good all round as a well made sax built in Asia. You simply can't assert that the entire output of a massive continent is crap, and in my experience, some saxes from some parts of Asia have been poor, others decent. My curved soprano was made in mainland China and it's a keeper. As a sax to play, it's better than my vintage Buescher. A Gear4Music or Sakkusu sax (made in China) which has had a basic set-up will play far better than a Weltklang. Some older Sakkusu saxes, made in another country in Asia (Taiwan) were excellent. Anyone who can't get a decent tone from one of these, needs to look to their technique rather than the sax.

I agree why inflict this on oneself and even more important on a nebie player it will just amplify any struggles.
When I was learning to play my father was determined to make sure it was not my instrument or mouthpiece that was holding me me back. Start with decent equipment and know the problems are you and thus up to you to resolve not a repair tech.

Start with something that has some value otherwise your time spent learning has little value.
When it is time to give up or move to a better instrument you can recover some of your investment in the instrument you bought.

I think alot of this instrument angst goes to ego. Older players may not want to start on a student horn be it Yamaha, Jupiter or Asian. If they make it to a jam be it in a basement, church, community centre or a bar it is often asked what horn are you playing. Whether the query is due to how well or sad one is playing.

All my gigging horns are Asian now. If a horn is stolen or damaged no problem easy and reasonable to replace or repair.

More fuel for the fire.

 

[Targa]

I have had 2 or 3 weltklangs through my hands in the dim and distant past, and can assure you they were rubbish ! The first one was 20 quid from some kid ( who with hindsight may well have nicked it ) This was the Punk era and the weltklang was just about adequate for the kind of racket we were creating in the name of 'music', however soon got dumped in favour of something else as soon as it was available ( I sprayed it metallic green as I recall 🙂 ) TBH I can't see why anyone would buy one unless it was a case of 'that or nothing' and it was similarly dirt cheap.
As regards former Soviet & allied bloc manufactured goods in general they were often, sorry to say, very sub standard quality. This goes for all sorts..tools, cameras, instruments, whatever. I say this from experience and without prejudice of course

In the 70s my first SLR camera was a Zenith made in Russia which was good enough to learn on, I wouldn’t have said it was ‘faulty’.
Dixon’s sold a similar looking camera for a few pounds more and the shop assistant was explaining the differences to me until I started to lift the sticker with their name and reveal the ‘Zenith’ underneath.

 

[JayeNM]

Stripping away all the irrelevant puffery leaves us with the above response to my 8-point comparison to a Chinese horn.
As I said in that post, one might argue a point or two if desperate - and despite your rattling on about subjectivity your single defence is an entirely subjective opinion on tone. I should point out that it doesn't take years of workbench experience to reach such a conclusion - even a very modest player can compare the tone of two horns and state a preference.
And, well, that's it. At this point there's really nothing else to say - apart from...



I really don't know why you keep repeating this misinformation - so here are the FACTS (pardon the childish caps but you seem to feel that they lend comments some authority...).

The crappy late model Weltklang was in production from the early 1970s and had a run of approximately 25 years - give or take a few years when production ceased and remaining stock continued to be sold. There were minor changes to the design over those years, and for the masochists who wish to entertain one of these horns I would very strongly advise sticking to the later models (early '80s onwards) because some of the build issues that plagued them had been addressed. Only some, mind.

O....K....

8-point comparison....,very nice, but none of it refutes the answer to this question:

Q- Why buy a Weltklang over a cheapo asian budget model ?:

A- Because the Welt has that big, ol' German dark tone like a Keilwerth or a Kohlert. And once put into good tack, it won't fall apart on you.

While a cheapo asian budget horn.... sounds sorta like a Kazoo. Got zero mojo. Probably got negative mojo....

Even a Yama 23 sounds way better that those (and a Yama 23 doesn't have a nice tonality compared to say, a used Jupe or Buffet of comparable second-hand price). That's how thin a cheapo asian budget horn can sound, and the vast majority DO....regardless of its build quality (which at best isn't "good"...just "it doesn't stink").

So, for those who want THAT Tonality, THAT sonic signature....but cannot afford a vintage JK, the Weltklang is "the poor man's vintage JK".

Have it set up right by a professional, and it will do some of what a JK can do. It won't perform badly, and it'll have a Tonality which can knock over a barn.

Which is certainly good enough for a $450 Alto/600 Tenor, I'd say.

 

[jonf]

I think alot of this instrument angst goes to ego. Older players may not want to start on a student horn be it Yamaha, Jupiter or Asian.

All good comments. One thing, though. Yamaha and Jupiter are Asian. Yamaha saxes are bult in Japan and Indonesia, Jupiter in Taiwan. All these countries are in Asia. Too many commentators seem to thnink that Asian equals Chinese. That's about as valid as thinking that European equals (for example) France.

 

[jonf]

While a cheapo asian budget horn.... sounds sorta like a Kazoo. Got zero mojo. Probably got negative mojo....

Sorry, but this is nonsense. I have played, and still own, budget Asian hons, as well as high level Asian horns (Yanagisawa and Yamaha) and vintage stuff. If I sounded like a kazoo on the cheaper horns (I didn't, I sounded like, well, me playing a sax) it would be down to the player not the horn.

 

[JayeNM]

I agree why inflict this on oneself

"Why inflict a sax... which has a big, robust Tonality like a vintage JK but can be had for half the price of one and once put in good shape by a tech will be pretty reliable and have acceptable action and intonation....

...on oneself ?"

Or...

"why would someone who has only had experience with modern asian horns and has limited finances...but has wanted to dabble in vintage...want to make an investment in a relatively inexpensive vintage horn which happened to cross their path...which possesses a classic-old school tonality and vibe and once set up will be pretty reliable...so they can experience a different kind of sax paradigm...?"

(one can argue these become rhetorical questions, when rephrased, no ?)