Saxophones Advice on buying a saxophone - Weltklang

It makes me wonder too about the process which got DDR saxophones (DDR made the 'best' consumer goods / scientific instruments etc in the Eastern-bloc though CZ also turned out some good stuff) back into the USSR-proper (as Ukraine was), and what people did with them once they were there. I remember reading that communism had a difficult on-off relationship with jazz - for a while proletarian-art (good) but then western-decadence/individual-freedom (bad) and so on, and on. A compilation called 'Spiritual Jazz 18: Behind the Iron Curtain' appears to be a thing - anyone listened to it?

Getting hold of things to listen to back then and there must have been really, really difficult. A Polish friend's mother was telling me about dictating forbidden books onto audio tape when it became available in the 80s (open reel) - when the economic situation in Poland was so dire than acquiring even a basic locally-produced (Unitra ?) deck must have been a massive deal. Taping from foreign radio was a thing, of course. But in the 60s, and even 50s...who knows.
Agreed, and interesting info regarding scientific instruments, etc.

Having seen, over almost 20 years, DDR (Welt and B&S) and Romanian (Arta) and Czech (Amati primarily )instruments being sold, used, from former Soviet bloc countries and particularly Russia and Ukraine, pretty regularly (especially given the fact that Soviet made saxes were really iffy, I doubt their brasswinds were any better) I had always assumed there was a pretty well-established line of supply from the satellite countries to Russia and Ukraine.

(For anyone who trashes Weltklang, I have a proposition for you...go find yourself a Moscow Music Works or a Leningrad-something-or-other (forgot exact name of factory) brand sax....You will see how decent Weltklangs of the same period, actually were).

BTW, apropos of nothing really....anyone ever see the movie "Taxi Blues" ?

Russian film (maybe Ukraine) from right around the time of the dissolution of USSR. A struggling artist-free-jazz-sax player one of the two central characters (the other is a Taxi driver).

It was a really good film, if anyone wants to dig it up it is worth a watch, definitely.
 
(For anyone who trashes Weltklang, I have a proposition for you...go find yourself a Moscow Music Works or a Leningrad-something-or-other (forgot exact name of factory) brand sax....You will see how decent Weltklangs of the same period, actually were).
I have once come across one of those Leningrad things, a tenor. It was staggering just how awful it was. Weltklangs were at least functional, if crude.
 
Thanks for the film recommendation. There are a few odd films I have enjoyed from that end of the world ('The Lives of Others' is perhaps the most powerful - it is about art, but not music per se) - I'll go digging for the one you mention.

Supply of consumer goods from DDR and CZ into the USSR was certainly a big thing - Jawa bikes for example were all over the place in USSR even though they made their own 2-strokes, though goods from different countries seem to me to have ended up unevenly distributed. My Polish mate would be a lot more up on this kind of thing.

That album I mentioned is on youtube here: it is by no means primtive.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng_7UhxdAVc&list=OLAK5uy_mez5VrLdMb21cJDoNLfWnGmVdN9jwKxRM
 
Having seen, over almost 20 years, DDR (Welt and B&S) and Romanian (Arta) and Czech (Amati primarily )instruments being sold, used, from former Soviet bloc countries and particularly Russia and Ukraine, pretty regularly (especially given the fact that Soviet made saxes were really iffy, I doubt their brasswinds were any better) I had always assumed there was a pretty well-established line of supply from the satellite countries to Russia and Ukraine.

(For anyone who trashes Weltklang, I have a proposition for you...go find yourself a Moscow Music Works or a Leningrad-something-or-other (forgot exact name of factory) brand sax....You will see how decent Weltklangs of the same period, actually were).
I can assure you that in my near 50 years at the workbench I've seen a great deal of sh*te - and up there in the top 5 are the saxes made by Adolphe himself. But here's the thing - just because something sh*te isn't as sh*te as something else (Parrot, Lark, Earlham, Guban, Indian red-pads et al), doesn't make it any less sh*ite. Unless that's your metric of quality, in which case it's sh*te.
 
I can assure you that in my near 50 years at the workbench I've seen a great deal of sh*te - and up there in the top 5 are the saxes made by Adolphe himself. But here's the thing - just because something sh*te isn't as sh*te as something else (Parrot, Lark, Earlham, Guban, Indian red-pads et al), doesn't make it any less sh*ite. Unless that's your metric of quality, in which case it's sh*te.
Agreed to a degree...but in case I wasn't clear in my opinion (and again I have refurbed around 50 Weltklangs...probably more, honestly)...

I would suggest someone refurb a Weltklang, pre-80's, putting an investment of say $400-450 for an Alto (acquisition and repair work).....rather than buy a Parrot, Lark, Mendini, Hawk, etc....

There are several different levels of 'bad'...and a Welt, outside of their last decade of production, do not NEARLY graze the bottom...particularly when a professional has attended to them.

As stated a few times here...would I suggest someone invest $600-700 in one ? No. Particularly because there are other options that would be a wiser investment at that price point.

The "OP horn in question" (whatever the OP's intent here was)...would have done just that $350-400 purchase, I guarantee it'd need $200 of work just from lack of description = not a good use of one's funds....

There is a difference between this distinction, and just flat out calling a brand a piece of crap.

The difference between: "garbage, don't touch it, you are getting yourself into a quagmire" vs. "I wouldn't invest much in that one, but you could invest something and it'd likely serve".

Budget asians (talking $300-600 brand new saxes, emblazoned with so many ' brand names' I have lost track by now)....are, simply.... pieces of crap.

BY the TIME you get to a price point for a new horn which at least has received SOME (objective, not market-backed) feedback of it being...somewhat respectable (or to put it less eloquently, "Not pieces of crap")...you are at $750-850usd, here (Jean Paul or BetterSax).
 
Because of differences in location and shipment costs, could it be that those Weltklangs that made it to US had better QA by importers? That UK being closer to the source had batches imported through the years not as well scrutinised?
 
OK, Weltklang fun facts.

Many years I was in the shop of legendary London repairer and player Willie Garnet (RIP) who pointed at a soprano on his very cluttered bench. "That's Dick Heckstall Smith's. Believe it or not it's a f***ing Welklang. I've fixed the keywork so he can do a Roland Kirk and play soprano and tenor at the same time."
 
This. horn has been for sale here for a week at $350.00 CDN = $250.00 USD
1768246012783.webp
 
In the world of Weltklang try the older models with wire key guards. The newer models have difficulty to reach this level, The last ones with the weird square beam in the main stack are nothing special. Just a story of declining quality comparable with Amati which started from the Keilwerth toneking.
 
I worked in a music shop back in the late 70's. We sold new B&S (Blue Label), Weltklangs, Lois Robert (Amati Super Classic stencil), Lark/Swallow, Gulf, Conn (Mexico) Bundy/Buescher (Selmer US) + some italian saxes and of course Yamaha YTS 21. They were all sold as student/beginner saxes. Among these saxes I think Yamaha was the best one.

We often link to SH website and the sax reviews. A 40 years old Weltklang or B&S can't compete to a new/modern student sax. But I would like to compare these saxes to a Lark/Swallow, Gulf, Conn Mexico ...... from the late 70's.
 
I have been eyeing a minty B&S IV alto. Been listed for only $1000.00 CDN for about two months and only a half hour drive away. Here that is 40km on the highway.
So not worth the fuel to give it a try? 🤫
 
I have once come across one of those Leningrad things, a tenor. It was staggering just how awful it was. Weltklangs were at least functional, if crude.
Around 1989 a piano factory in the Netherlands got a batch of Russian brass instruments including saxophones. They held an open day for people to try out these instruments. According to a local saxophone teacher I was the only one that day who could play a scale on these saxophones. He couldn't. The red pads on the "made" in India saxophones are better.
OK, Weltklang fun facts.

Many years I was in the shop of legendary London repairer and player Willie Garnet (RIP) who pointed at a soprano on his very cluttered bench. "That's Dick Heckstall Smith's. Believe it or not it's a f***ing Welklang. I've fixed the keywork so he can do a Roland Kirk and play soprano and tenor at the same time."
Weltklang made large bore soprano's with a lot of volume. Loud, not pretty.
 
All I can add is to explore. This being any sax.

Do your due diligence and seek adventure in any horn. Know the working limits of what can be achieved. This comes from your experience and experience only.

Well known brands in poor condition have potential. Play, listen, feel. Can you make adjustments to your needs/ wants?

lesser known brands that have been worked on by a tech with talent have potential. Well, Use your lifetime of knowledge. Direct your tech in what you seek. Team effort, sometimes good, or not.

Nothing is set in stone. It’s a craft.
Mechanical or talent of the player.

One horn, twenty artists.

One states a wobble
One states too free blowing
One states resistance
One states the heavens
….
 
I was down to the B&S/Weltklang company once in the late 70's. I was "travel companion", a shop owner and sax tech used to drive down Marknuekirchen and collect new B&S and Weltklangs. He loaded his estate full of saxes. Back in Sweden he re-padded and gave the saxes new corks and corks and felts. After this he was still able to sell with a profit. They wanted dollars!!

It was hard and tough in eastern Europe back then.
 
Agreed to a degree...but in case I wasn't clear in my opinion (and again I have refurbed around 50 Weltklangs...probably more, honestly)...

Oooh, the numbers game (again). Sure, I’ll play...
I’m not sure I’ve ever counted how many I’ve worked on – so let’s have a go, just for a laugh.
I was contracted to the ILEA to repair school instruments for at least ten years – and each week we’d pick up a vanload of instruments. Let’s be conservative and say that there were typically 5 Weltklangs in each delivery. Let’s call the school year 36 weeks.
That’s 5x36, which makes 180. Over ten years that's nigh on 2000 Weltklangs.
Add in the examples in private hands and the schools that carried on using my services after the ILEA folded – and then add on the 40 or so years since the ‘80s.
Goodness me.

There are several different levels of 'bad'...and a Welt, outside of their last decade of production, do not NEARLY graze the bottom...particularly when a professional has attended to them.

Actually they got a bit better towards the end of their run. I made that point before in another discussion but it doesn’t seem to have sunk in. And before that they were always bad – until you hit the ‘vintage’ models.

There is a difference between this distinction, and just flat out calling a brand a piece of crap.
...
Budget asians (talking $300-600 brand new saxes, emblazoned with so many ' brand names' I have lost track by now)....are, simply.... pieces of crap.

What was that about flat out calling a brand a piece of crap?

Let’s pick it apart. Late Weltklang vs a G4M.

The first thing people often say is that the Chinese horn is lightweight. In fact the Weltklangs were considerably lighter. Not much heavier than a 20 series Yamaha.
Score 1 for the G4M

Body build quality on both horns is sub-par, both sharing much the same issues.
Call that a draw.

Shedding parts. Common to both horns but rather less prevalent on the G4M. Chinese horns tend to pop guard stays – Weltklangs could shed pretty much anything at any time, especially the pillars that held the bars on which the stack keys were mounted. You can carry on playing a horn that's popped a guard stay but when the stacks start flopping around you're dead in the water.
Call that a win for the G4M.

Key quality on both horns have issues. The Weltklang had better finished barrel ends, but that’s about it. Remedial work is much harder on the Weltklang and the use of alloy rods was problematic due to wear.
Another win for the G4M.

Pads. This is a no-brainer. The Weltklang pads lasted forever but they were awful and extremely difficult to manipulate. And they made the keys feel squishy under the fingers.
A clear win for the G4M.

Ergonomics/feel. The Weltklang was designed as a student horn – it was never anything more than clunky. The G4M is a copy of an expensive pro horn.
Huge win for the G4M.

Playability. Chalk and cheese really. Even if the G4M had only 50% (it’s typically very much higher than that) of the playability of the horn it was copied from, it’s way ahead of the best the Weltklang can manage. Tuning’s better on the G4M too.
A slam-dunk to the G4M.

Economics. To get the best out of both horns you’re going to need to spend some money – and as it’s a used/new comparison it gets a bit complicated. Even more so if you consider that you can pick up a lightly-used G4M alto on eBay for a touch under £200 on any day of the week.
But in terms of what you get after you’ve spent money on tweaks/repairs the G4M still wins.

On the numbers alone it’s a 8 to 1 win for the G4M. Sure, you might argue a couple of points if you were that desperate but the Chinese horn is always going to kick the Weltklang in the nuts.
And if you wanted something rather better you’d only need to go as far as £450 and you’d be looking at a very tidy used 700 series Jupiter or a TJ Revolution – neither of which will likely need anything other than a cursory tweak or two, if that.
Based on all of the above there’s just no sense or logic in even thinking that a late model Weltklang is in any way a viable proposition.
 
Because of differences in location and shipment costs, could it be that those Weltklangs that made it to US had better QA by importers? That UK being closer to the source had batches imported through the years not as well scrutinised?

I think that's very highly unlikely. At best they might have made a better job of the toneholes (which would pretty much eat up all the profit) and then you'd still be left with all the other issues.
 
I had own some Weltklangs and B&S (Blue Label) over the years. I think they were sturdy built.

I have owned one GM4 (Yani copy) tenor and the D palm key cup was very off. No QC at the plant in PRC. The person who made sax ready for the market , in UK I guess, had a bad day. I sold the sax for less money and told the buyer to spend the money at the sax tech to do some work an the sax.

Maybe the G4M's are better today. They are nowadays a Yamaha copy and Yamaha is known for very QC ...... .😉

G4Mpalmkey.webp
 
I had own some Weltklangs and B&S (Blue Label) over the years. I think they were sturdy built.

I have owned one GM4 (Yani copy) tenor and the D palm key cup was very off. No QC at the plant in PRC. The person who made sax ready for the market , in UK I guess, had a bad day. I sold the sax for less money and told the buyer to spend the money at the sax tech to do some work an the sax.

Maybe the G4M's are better today. They are nowadays a Yamaha copy and Yamaha is known for very QC ...... .😉
At the asking price I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned about an off-centre key cup. As long as there's sufficient coverage such that the pad seals, it's not a big deal on the smaller keys really. If it comes to it a bit of realignment and a new pad will sort it - assuming there's room to move it.
 

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