Saxophones Advice on buying a saxophone - Weltklang

[Woodpad]

I have never read a good word about Weltklang saxophones . However ,I do know there are lot's of boats at the boat show.

Weltklang instruments are a fantastic subject if you want to talk to trumpet players.

 

[thomsax]

I like Weltklang, Amati. Bundy II. King 61X, Indiana, Dörfler & Jörka ..... I don't buy or play saxes made in countries where they make adult dolls with a childish look ..... a Bundy II, Martin, New King makes me feel better.

 

[JayeNM]

The way I look at them is they are crude, badly made and the synthetic pads they come with from new are terrible, although durable. They have little finesse and are easily outplayed by a Taiwanese student sax, let alone a Yamaha. BUT, for all that, for loud rock and roll blasting they have a certain appeal.

They are also the perfect sax for a rough gig. Many years ago, in my youth, I played in some really rough Working Men's Clubs in the Middlesbrough area. A Weltklang would have been good for that use-case - a low value sax you wouldn't be bothered about getting a few knocks, and if things really kicked off, you could use it as a weapon.

(One of these gigs was at a place called The Sycamore Club, now thankfully long gone. There was at least one fight every time I was there. It had a balcony around the main drinking area, and on one memorable occasion, a drunk jumped from the balcony onto a table below, crushing it and sensing glasses and bottles flying. He just walked off. And, as they say, the band played on).

I agree with most of that.

I would start with their biggest positive attribute: Tone. They just sound really good. Big, fat, dark, tons of cojones. Very German-toned.

I would also say this: not ALL of them are 'crude' in precision. That was really variable. As a very GENERAL observation, I have found that the ones from the late 70's-80's get janky, the body metal is thin, the key castings are not well finished, occasionally the tenon walls are so thick that they would be impossible to ever expand should a tech need to tweak a neck fit. Things like that.
With that said I have also serviced a few 80's ones which were fabricated nicely. There was not slop in the keys, everything fit well, and they held regulation.
The older ones (again, generally speaking) seem to be more robust in construction.

Intonation on them are generally OK, I cannot recall one where there were notes which were wildly off. They had intonational flex like other horns of their era, maybe a tad more flex than say a JK or Kohlert. But nothing a player of vintage horns couldn't deal with.

A LOT of them are Silver Plate, and honestly the plating jobs on those I have worked on ( a good number) had held up pretty darn well....

The pads, yeah, the factory pads. In oine sense I appreciate the fact that they went synthetic, I consider it a sorta prototype experiment into things more people are experimenting with today (although I realize the intent was probably not to groundbreak, but rather cut production cost) But honestly...any Weltklang being played today should have by now had their factory pads replaced a long time ago.

Key action/response was also variable...again if the quality of fabrication and assembly from a factory is gonna be consistently variable over 20 or 30 years, some will roll off being respectably decent in most categories and some will not....I have played plenty which really felt as good under the fingers as any Conn or King or Buescher second shelfer of its time. But have also had some which needed a LOT of key attention just to get it acceptable in feel and response.

I DO agree, really, any DECENT Taiwanese, Japanese, or even some good reputed Chinese-factory student or student-intermediate Altos or Tenors can "outplay" one using most people's checklist. Even a rock-solid-reputation vintage student horn can.

Which is ultimately why I stopped buying and refurbing these. It became hard to make an argument for one when I could offer a Conn 50M or a Jupiter-made Vito for maybe $50 more.

They also do, for some folks, have a sorta 'cool' aspect of being an East-Bloc horn, and a brand which actually had a pretty long run from there....at that....

But overall, they became a horn which, today, my best advice is:

If someone came across one for like $100-150, or less (alto) or maybe $150-250 (tenor), or better yet is gifted one or finds one in their attic....and they could get it up to play condition with maybe $200-250 of tech work...you wouldn't have made a 'bad investment'. It will serve you pretty well.

But if one had a short list of: "I have narrowed my options down to these available ones", assuming that list is looking at say a $400+ asking price.....the Welt should probably be crossed off if there are a couple of pretty reputable brand names on that list....

Which in the end isn't much of a rave for these...but...they aren't as bad as their reputation makes 'em to be, I guess....

 

[Tonehole]

I suggest you rent a student model for a few months and decide on how invested you truely want to become. Invested in time and money, how well do you want to play, dedicated to practice and improving and how much do you want to enjoy playing.

Playing a beater sax is not enjoyable .. tough to learn on. A couple hundred in having it set up if you are lucky and it is in decent shape. You would be at $600.00

You need a decent mouthpiece, used that will be $150.00 off eBay.
A box of reeds can set you back $30.00.
A cheap neck strap $20.00.
That sax will need a new case if you want to take it out of the house to jam or gig... another $150.00.

You are close to $1,000.00 all in and the sax is still worth $400.00 if you can even sell it.

Decent Jupiters and Yamaha horns come up for less than that. Be patient, something better and cheaper will come your way.

This Jupiter would blow that Weltklang off the stage, you likely would not have to upgrade unless you get the urge and you could get your investment back.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[progger]

Hi, @Awwburreee – it looks like you're in Killeen, yeah? I'm down the road in Austin most of the time. Check out Better than New Band Repair in Round Rock. Aside from being some of the best woodwind repair people in the state (Karen and Travis are absolutely excellent, and I got spoiled when I was living in NYC), they usually have some good used saxophones that they keep in great playing condition. It might be a bit more money than this Weltklang but you'll have a playable instrument that's been thoroughly vetted and serviced, and that goes a long way.

 

[PigSquealer]

Hi, @Awwburreee – it looks like you're in Killeen, yeah? I'm down the road in Austin most of the time.

Any chance you’d be willing to meet and review the tenor ? @Awwburreee needs help. Yeah it looks like new in the pictures. Pictures that don’t show issues. Like pad leaks or the sound of dry (no oil) keywork. I’ve met some really great people being kind with sharing knowledge in person.

 

[thomsax]

This Jupiter would blow that Weltklang off the stage,

No, no ... it's opposite, the "Weltklangs" blows the the Jupiter into the corner. Jupiter, Yamaha, and other "easy to play and own saxes" are IMO rather "charactless" saxes. Nothing wrong with "charactless" saxes if that what we are looking for.

 

[Ghr9204]

Jupiter, Yamaha, and other "easy to play and own saxes" are IMO rather "charactless" saxes.

My Jupiter Vito tenor has character, puts out a really nice subtone. I can make it sing. It is characterless in that it has no pretty engravings and no altissimo F#, but easily made up for with alternate altissimo fingerings.

I've found sometimes by a simple mouthpiece change can make a sax sing.

 

[Targa]

How many boats are Boaty McBoatface boats at the McBoatface show?

There's only one real one.

Boaty McBoatface - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tonehole]

No, no ... it's opposite, the "Weltklangs" blows the the Jupiter into the corner. Jupiter, Yamaha, and other "easy to play and own saxes" are IMO rather "charactless" saxes. Nothing wrong with "charactless" saxes if that what we are looking for.

Yeah, No body puts baby in a corner! Lol!

Like saying you want to take a single shot, long barreled antique gun that has a lot of character to a quick draw challenge and don't care if it is clunky, bulky, slow to draw and may misfire.

I guess we would have to do a shoot out but my Jupiter tenor, a JTS 889 GS held its own at last night's New Years gig.

How does the theory go?
It is the player (Me) then the mouthpiece ( Beechler Bellite #8) the neck ( solid silver ) until finally the horn influences and impacts the sound.

My Jupiter can stand its ground centre stage no problem but if needed I can switch to my Series III or my Cannonball Hotspur T5-HS if it is a heavy fire fight.

Happy New Year to all!

 

[JayeNM]

I suggest you rent a student model for a few months and decide on how invested you truely want to become. Invested in time and money, how well do you want to play, dedicated to practice and improving and how much do you want to enjoy playing.

Playing a beater sax is not enjoyable .. tough to learn on. A couple hundred in having it set up if you are lucky and it is in decent shape. You would be at $600.00

You need a decent mouthpiece, used that will be $150.00 off eBay.
A box of reeds can set you back $30.00.
A cheap neck strap $20.00.
That sax will need a new case if you want to take it out of the house to jam or gig... another $150.00.

You are close to $1,000.00 all in and the sax is still worth $400.00 if you can even sell it.

Decent Jupiters and Yamaha horns come up for less than that. Be patient, something better and cheaper will come your way.

This Jupiter would blow that Weltklang off the stage, you likely would not have to upgrade unless you get the urge and you could get your investment back.

Pardon Our Interruption...

I agree with a lot of this ....but a couple things I wanna mention:

IF someone has $400 in their pocket right now and that is what they have set aside for buying a sax...then RENTING one, entering a rental contract...is actually perhaps counterproductive because it is gonna drain what they have set aside...rather quickly, and in the end one may end up in no position to buy one six months from now.

OP states his budget is low, so I would assume that means it is low out of necessity, not just b/c he/she doesn't wanna spend more although they may have it.

Next...$150 mouthpiece ? I may be misunderstanding something, but....one can buy a Bari Esprit mountpiece with lig, new, for $25, Fobes Debut for $45. Both very decent mothpieces, better than a Yama 4 or 5C for sure.

But I agree with the intent of your post....this particular Welt is gonna be a quagmire, and yeah, on a good day one CAN find a deal online, used, which is much superior for $400. They just gotta bone up a bit on how to shop for a second-hand instrument online, questions to ask, assurances to receive, etc.

 

[JayeNM]

No, no ... it's opposite, the "Weltklangs" blows the the Jupiter into the corner. Jupiter, Yamaha, and other "easy to play and own saxes" are IMO rather "charactless" saxes. Nothing wrong with "charactless" saxes if that what we are looking for.

It does depend, actually. It depends upon your yardstick. But I am gonna agree that there is a sorta lack of uniqueness to most student and student-intermediate modern horns, soncially.

As I noted, Welt's BEST attribute is their tone. Massive, knock-'em down. In this respect, they do blow away a Jupe or Yama student or intermediate model, they truly do. So if your #1 is you want a really NICE toned horn, very vintagey in sonic attributes, and you are cool with keywork which isn't as slick as something else available at a similar price, then the Welt does have the advantage.

But if one has a yardstick of 1) something extremely user-friendly 2) resting assured that your horn is gonna hold up well and not require significant future servicings to keep it in regulation OR to slowly correct its idiosyncracies 3) tonality being of secondary importance - I don't want it to sound BAD, but a general conventional modern-tone (brightish, focused, maybe a bit 'thin' in comparison to a vintage horn, etc) is acceptable if the above desires are gonna be met...

Then I would say a modern, big-name student or lower-intermediate model is gonna actually have quite an advantage over a used Welt, to most folks.

 

[Tonehole]

I’m looking to buy a horn, but I’m restricted on budget … i have found this one Facebook and the seller gave me the ID number 57961. Do you have any information about the year, model type, ect? Trying to decide if this is a good buy..

Thanks
Aubrey

I "assumed" Aubrey to be a new player Perhaps I am wrong on that, perhaps clarity can be supplied on level of play and experience. If starting out tone will not be a priority but in tune, dependability and ease of key work is!

I just checked Sweetwater and renting an intermediate tenor would burn through $400.00 very quickly, like 6 months.
Trial first month only $25.00 though.
A local store likely can rent a used horn for much less and maybe an option to purchase. No problems with set up.

As for mouthpieces I have given away 4C and Selmer C* to student players in the past so if Aubrey networks a nice piece can be scored for free or a reasonable price. Most players have pieces sitting in bins and drawers.

All depends on how immersive Aubrey wants to get. If a newbie is going to be self taught off the internet? But if a few private lessons with a local teacher / player a whole world of opportunities will open up.

 

[Ghr9204]

No, no ... it's opposite, the "Weltklangs" blows the the Jupiter into the corner. Jupiter, Yamaha, and other "easy to play and own saxes" are IMO rather "charactless" saxes. Nothing wrong with "charactless" saxes if that what we are looking for.

It does depend, actually. It depends upon your yardstick.

Both Jupiter and Yamaha make student model instruments, which are (or were) popular due to their affordability and generally better, fit, finish and quality assurance out-the-door. Hence they were easier to play versus earlier saxes, which I gather the general rule was played better once a tech did a COA on them.

Since the bulk of players for these were students perhaps accounts for "characterless" saxes, as they had not developed their instrumental character yet?

Seriously, you give a pro or an advanced player a humble Selmer Bundy and they play a gig with it. Few will know what sax they are playing. Their riffs, everything will sound pro. Some pros even use a "busking level" student or intermediate sax to play in venues where they don't want to risk damage to their higher cost axe. The character is in the musician. The sax is a tool.

I hope that @Awwburreee is OK. Haven't heard from the OP after the first post.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Some pros even use a "busking level" student or intermediate sax to play in venues where they don't want to risk damage to their higher cost axe.

Kind of reminds me of when I made the saxophone instruction course (DVD) for Yamaha. They wanted me to not use my own horn but a Yamaha of course. I thought it odd at first they wanted it to be a YAS23 student model, which I did and was happy with. In I fact didn’t notice any significant difference to my previous YAS 62. I think they did that with all of the Jools Holland series demonstrators.

 

[Tonehole]

Yes I use my Jupiter instead of my III or T5-HS for most gigs where I am just blending or supplying background atmosphere. You do a coctail or wedding ceramony people are not there to hear you or rate your tone. You really don't want to be noticed unless you are on the dance floor! Just part of the room. LOL
I use my C Melody often for gigs as no one notices or cares and it works well for Sax Tracks gigs in resturants.

I bought my Jupiter for $800.00 CDN new and it is a work horse, plus some bling. It has been knocked over many times and no tears.

I just bought a Cannoball big bell alto in ruby black for a show horn if anyone knows of a match for tenor or soprano that is for sale or in a closet let me know.

Cheers

 

[PigSquealer]

Next...$150 mouthpiece ? I may be misunderstanding something, but....one can buy a Bari Esprit mountpiece with lig, new, for $25, Fobes Debut for $45. Both very decent mothpieces, better than a Yama 4 or 5C for sure.

$20 Made in Keller Texas. @lukehuang77 has one. I’ve heard him on it while playing / testing here in shed. Stage solo videos too.
Impressive Meyer copy that he prefers over an Selmer C*80 I gave him.

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[Colin the Bear]

Who gives away Selmer mouthpieces?

 

[lukehuang77]

Well, the mouthpiece is easy to play but the sound quality is not as good as Selmer S80 C*. The “copy” is much quieter; therefore it’s good for practice, but for performance (solo), C* is way better. I cherish this gift and feel grateful everyday 😁

 

[PigSquealer]

Who gives away Selmer mouthpieces?

I had two of the same. I’m not a Hog 😉