Saxophones Advice on buying a saxophone - Weltklang

Since the bulk of players for these were students perhaps accounts for "characterless" saxes, as they had not developed their instrumental character yet?

Seriously, you give a pro or an advanced player a humble Selmer Bundy and they play a gig with it. Few will know what sax they are playing. Their riffs, everything will sound pro. Some pros even use a "busking level" student or intermediate sax to play in venues where they don't want to risk damage to their higher cost axe. The character is in the musician. The sax is a tool.
Bingo! Nailed it.

I used to get lots of players asking me how I got such a sound out of my old YTS-23 - and I told them it was down to using the same setup for years.
I get lots of clients in with fine old vintage horns and posh mouthpieces - and yet I can still 'out warm' most of them with my 23 and a Dukoff D8 with a Plasticover reed. Once you figure out that your horn is merely a vehicle for your own sound you can make it do pretty much anything - and the choice of horn becomes that of finding the one that makes it easiest to do this.

The student Yamahas tend to suffer because of their position in the market and their selling price. I mean, who turns back to a 'student' horn once they've bought their first intermediate or pro horn? There are countless players out there rocking posh horns that have never played a 23 and so have no idea at all about what it's capable of.
And yeah, I've moved on to the RAW...because it was the cheapest of only three horns that gave me a little bit more but still retained the clarity and transparency of my 23.

As for the late series Weltklang - it was always a turd. Built like one, played like one, sounded like one and often smelled like one too. Recommended only by people who are unlucky enough to own one...or who are looking to sell one.
The baritone used to be just about OK if you were on a very limited budget but these days a used Chinese Yamaha/Yani copy will comprehensively kick one in the nuts for much the same money.
 
Both Jupiter and Yamaha make student model instruments, which are (or were) popular due to their affordability and generally better, fit, finish and quality assurance out-the-door. Hence they were easier to play versus earlier saxes, which I gather the general rule was played better once a tech did a COA on them.

Since the bulk of players for these were students perhaps accounts for "characterless" saxes, as they had not developed their instrumental character yet?

Seriously, you give a pro or an advanced player a humble Selmer Bundy and they play a gig with it. Few will know what sax they are playing. Their riffs, everything will sound pro. Some pros even use a "busking level" student or intermediate sax to play in venues where they don't want to risk damage to their higher cost axe. The character is in the musician. The sax is a tool.

I hope that @Awwburreee is OK. Haven't heard from the OP after the first post.
The modern new saxes are very good. But boring. I played Yani T-880 for some time. I found that the T-880 and "The Martin" were pretty close to each other when it came to the tone. Both were/are on the bright side. I hade more options to pick mouthpieces to my "The Martin Tenor" I play high baffle mpc. IMO the T-880 was more pre-set to use mainstream mouthpieces. I think "The Martin Tenor" have richer overtones.

For some years it was popular among bluessax players to sell thier MKVI, S20 ... and play Bundy II instead of an expensive "pro-horn". From that I can make two conclusions; a pro bluessax player is not so wellpaid and to play the electric blues the horn is not soo important. Another thing was they could have 2-4 Bundys instead of one pro-horn. Two on the road and two at the tech!!! The idea with back-up saxes is to have some saxes that plays in the same style.

"To have my King Super 20 on the road was risky. It was just too delicate. When my Super 20 days were over I started to play YTS 61 live and at recording sessions." told a very professional saxplayer me.
 
I would say Howarth has put the Weltklang in the loo. LOL

I just bought a minty YSS475 early II from a Blues hobbyist player at a deep discount price. I will use it as a beater horn and backup for my JPS-875 GS when it goes down for repairs.
It meets my needs perfectly and no tears will be shed when it gets bent.

What you blow in the instrument determines what comes out.
 
I don't think a Weltklang is that bad as some amatuer players says! I don't know how that came to that consclusion.

I don't think a Yamaha, Jupiter Yanagisawa .... are bad I would say they sound differnt. Modern saxes are built to meet todays need.

I've played Yanagisawa, Yamaha 62 and 25, Jupiter 700 ... and they were good. After some time I missed my old saxes.
 
I hope that @Awwburreee is OK. Haven't heard from the OP after the first post.
I think maybe we scared him/her away ???? Hope not....
Seriously, you give a pro or an advanced player a humble Selmer Bundy and they play a gig with it. Few will know what sax they are playing. Their riffs, everything will sound pro. Some pros even use a "busking level" student or intermediate sax to play in venues where they don't want to risk damage to their higher cost axe. The character is in the musician. The sax is a tool.
Completely true. One thing to consider however is that the player, to play their best, wants to have the horn they feel most comfortable with...so they can play their best. Yes, the audience (of non sax players) wouldn't likely notice anything, but if the player doesn't feel the 'horn can do' what he/she is used to 'doing', that will effect their playing...note selection, phrasing, etc.

So the tool needs to do what the players wants it to. Some horns, in some players' hands, can't 100% or even 75%.

I DO agree with @thomsax characterization of a "lack of character" in (most) contemporary below-pro level models of sax, actually....from the context of tonality. There is a 'modern tonality'...and on a Yani or high-end Yama, that can be quite a nice tonality. But going down the ladder of models/levels, there is sort of a certain 'sameness' in tonal attributes to modern horns. Just really the new sonic paradigm which Yamaha primarily ushered in in the 80's.

So revisiting the performer on stage example, even a non-musician would likely notice the difference in tonality of a Welt vs. a YAS-23. I do think it is ASIDE from that particular parameter that a Welt starts getting its butt kicked a bit....key action, overall feel under the fingers, for example...if those are your top checklist-items as a player, your top priorities.

Second thing, beyond key feel and action which comes into play between a German vintage and an Asian modern - is intonational flex - straight-arrow intonation is desirable by a lot of players....they wanna be able to slip up and get lazy in their embouchure and not have in necessarily show up in the notes. Easier to do on a Yani, Yama, Jupe than on a Weltklang or a JK or even a Conn. But this is also variable depending on the desire of the player.

I know quite a few really good players who set aside (either permanently or just on certain playing occasions) their top-line modern pro horn because they couldn't get the intonational flex they wanted as compared to their vintage one.

So "what you blow in the instrument determines what comes out" is true - and not true. An intermediate or above player will notice how a horn responds both under the fingers and to subtle (intentional) changes in embouchure (aka 'blowing'). It is a fact that a player can take their skill level and put it on a different horn and that horn will not give them the same result, so they are putting in the same input but not getting the same output. This variability exists even between student-level models of different mfrs....

So this starts going into things beyond "most people at shows or private functions aren't gonna notice". That is one yardstick and it is probably true. But it is also arguably not the end-all thing. Probably more important to the player is whether the horn can still output the way they want it to.

This thread is doing a pretty Deep Dive as far as the direction of the convo, actually (not digressing, mind you but opening up many facets) , the OP was just asking if a $400 listed Welt was a good deal....😀
 
I don't think a Weltklang is that bad as some amatuer players says! I don't know how that came to that consclusion.
Yeah, they're really not. Again, once attended to with some servicing, they can pretty much serve as well as a lotta other models.....

They just are not $400 project altos, is all...
 
but if the player doesn't feel the 'horn can do' what he/she is used to 'doing', that will effect their playing...note selection, phrasing, etc.
If the Weltklang makes a good placebo sax, then more power to them. >:) (With apology to Weltklang owners.) 😉
 
If the Weltklang makes a good placebo sax, then more power to them. >:) (With apology to Weltklang owners.) 😉
Lol. Has little to do with that , though.

1) A player wants a balls-out tone horn, big ol' vintage tone, dark, wide...

...they are a capable musician, but admittedly not lightning fast in their notespray nor do their performing situations and material call for it....

...they don't wanna fight the horn... but they are flexible enough in both conception and physical ability to get a new (to them) horn under their fingers and make it respond quite OK ....

.....and they do not have a lotta money to invest in a horn which needs to meet all that.

A $150 project Weltklang + $300 of tech work...gets them there ....better than buying a used $900 JK New King, a $1200 Couf, a $900 late Conn 6M, an $800 Buffet, etc, etc.

2) a player has a main horn already, they come across a Welt for sale for very cheap. Their tech says they can get it playing ok for $250. Is it worth bothering to do ?

Yeah, probably...if their horn is a contemporary one, and the investment is that reasonable, then they would have a second sax in their stable and likely it would offer certain qualties sonically which their modern one does not.

In the least if they do not like it, they had the experience of messin' on one for a while and now they can turn it and recover their investment.
 
Lol. Has little to do with that , though.

1) A player wants a balls-out tone horn, big ol' vintage tone, dark, wide...

...they are a capable musician, but admittedly not lightning fast in their notespray nor do their performing situations and material call for it....

...they don't wanna fight the horn... but they are flexible enough in both conception and physical ability to get a new (to them) horn under their fingers and make it respond quite OK ....

.....and they do not have a lotta money to invest in a horn which needs to meet all that.

A $150 project Weltklang + $300 of tech work...gets them there ....better than buying a used $900 JK New King, a $1200 Couf, a $900 late Conn 6M, an $800 Buffet, etc, etc.

2) a player has a main horn already, they come across a Welt for sale for very cheap. Their tech says they can get it playing ok for $250. Is it worth bothering to do ?

Yeah, probably...if their horn is a contemporary one, and the investment is that reasonable, then they would have a second sax in their stable and likely it would offer certain qualties sonically which their modern one does not.

In the least if they do not like it, they had the experience of messin' on one for a while and now they can turn it and recover their investment.
1) A player wants a balls-out tone horn, big ol' vintage tone, dark, wide..

That is your definition of what a player wants or needs.
I wanted to sound like Trane and Brecker as a young student and I still do!
Reason when I played in big bands manned by older players that they were hesitant to have me solo as a teen.

My father bought me my Series III tenor when I was 15 and I still have it and it is still my main horn.
Reason he bought it was he was tired of dragging my old 10M Conn in for constant adjustments and leaks. He sold the Conn and for $1,000.00 additional he bought me a new Series III that saw me through High school, a Jazz Performance Degree at McGill and then years of use with only the occasional tweeks, cleaning and some oil. After 20 years of hard playing I had it overhauled, it had a twisted stack, shredded pads, and a bow leak and easily 20, 000 hours of play and practice. The overhaul cost half the price of the III when new.

Never thought I needed a different horn as I had the III and bought my Jupiters S, A & T about 10 years ago as back up.

It is only the past four years that I have really got back into gigging. I have started to change my gear to appeal to the younger crowd which is where the paying gigs are. My father knew nothing about playing music and cannot carry a tune. But as a mechanic he would wonder if my struggles were due to me or the equipment. I started on a pawn shop Boosey & Hawkes clarinet and when my instructor said it was holding me back Dad bought me a new Leblanc Concerto. Still my go to clarinet.

Most of my buddies who play for pay are putting their old horns in the closet and playing Japanese & Taiwan horns.

Put a student on a Yammy or Jup and you know pretty quick where the problem is.
 
@ghostler I'm an Obstinate Coffin Dodger on a Yammy and I'm still looking for 'that' tone :rofl: 😉
Some people practice at being stubborn. I love those who do so from experience.

Can you just imagine a pub club that meets weekly to test every combination. Every sax, mouthpiece, reed, ligature, and stand. Everything SACTB in good nick from 1846 to current….from everywhere !! Add players of all cultures and genre.

IMHO Arts and crafts are never set in stone. That’s the beauty of music life to me. I’ve had the pleasure to service some horns that were like…. Does this even play ??. Players with fat wallets. So money was not a factor.

You could start a thread “that tone”…
 
1) A player wants a balls-out tone horn, big ol' vintage tone, dark, wide..

That is your definition of what a player wants or needs.
I wanted to sound like Trane and Brecker as a young student and I still do!
Reason when I played in big bands manned by older players that they were hesitant to have me solo as a teen.

My father bought me my Series III tenor when I was 15 and I still have it and it is still my main horn.
Reason he bought it was he was tired of dragging my old 10M Conn in for constant adjustments and leaks. He sold the Conn and for $1,000.00 additional he bought me a new Series III that saw me through High school, a Jazz Performance Degree at McGill and then years of use with only the occasional tweeks, cleaning and some oil. After 20 years of hard playing I had it overhauled, it had a twisted stack, shredded pads, and a bow leak and easily 20, 000 hours of play and practice. The overhaul cost half the price of the III when new.

Never thought I needed a different horn as I had the III and bought my Jupiters S, A & T about 10 years ago as back up.

It is only the past four years that I have really got back into gigging. I have started to change my gear to appeal to the younger crowd which is where the paying gigs are. My father knew nothing about playing music and cannot carry a tune. But as a mechanic he would wonder if my struggles were due to me or the equipment. I started on a pawn shop Boosey & Hawkes clarinet and when my instructor said it was holding me back Dad bought me a new Leblanc Concerto. Still my go to clarinet.

Most of my buddies who play for pay are putting their old horns in the closet and playing Japanese & Taiwan horns.

Put a student on a Yammy or Jup and you know pretty quick where the problem is.
A maker sends out a product.
A tech can only do so much.
A talented player makes it work to the best of their abilities.
I’ve had a few cars that got me from A to B that I didn’t like.
 
:hug:
Don't be so humble Pig squealer I think you could breath life into any horn you work on!

One doesn't necessarily sound bad just because one cannot get the tone they want.
Thanks🙂
Squeal happens🤪 !
All are the essence of individual character. Iife at its finest.
Play your best…
Entertainment is just that.
That’s all that matters.

The audience will go home with a life experience. Good, bad or whatever.

They have lived.

Seeking a joy of human existence. The sound of music.

That’s what matters IMHO. The feeling of being alive.

2026….Onwards !

Best to all who seek life, people who share music with others.

Play !!!
 
Thanks🙂
Squeal happens🤪 !
All are the essence of individual character. Iife at its finest.
Play your best…
Entertainment is just that.
That’s all that matters.

The audience will go home with a life experience. Good, bad or whatever.

They have lived.

Seeking a joy of human existence. The sound of music.

That’s what matters IMHO. The feeling of being alive.

2026….Onwards !

Best to all who seek life, people who share music with others.

Play !!!
That is seriously beautiful! Thank you!
 
That is seriously beautiful! Thank you!
Thanks for your honest reply.
Honestly that’s the way I feel.
Nobody goes out in life planning on a bad day.
Who practices endless hours to disappoint ?
Who buys a venue ticket expecting more than just a true live performance.
The real deal fans.
Some appreciate what is in front of them
The now and live.
Pub or zillion seat venues.
Those who know and appreciate will always be there.
 
1) A player wants a balls-out tone horn, big ol' vintage tone, dark, wide..

That is your definition of what a player wants or needs.
I wanted to sound like Trane and Brecker as a young student and I still do!
Reason when I played in big bands manned by older players that they were hesitant to have me solo as a teen.
You misunderstood my comment.... significantly, I think....(?). Granted I could have worded it a bit better.

I was not saying ALL players want a balls-out big dark sax tone.

I was enumerating a few instances where, if applicable to a particular player, a Weltklang WOULD BE a horn which can reasonably be considered, is all.

Thus, rather than it being a "placebo horn" (an unfair characterization of even a Welt, really), I was simply noting that in certain instances (such as a combo of lack of funds plus a particular tonal palette sought)....

...y'all get the idea....
 

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