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251's and Tritone subs

Re: How High The Moon

Just call it bV7 of V7

I know I'm leaving..>:)
yup plain and simple :thumb: and also when i improvise i think in that way, i just tried to show how to get there with a slightly more detailed description.

as for modes, sheesh, i say forget this 'modes' rubbish, been there, memorized it, decided it was in no way of use and is just someones twisted way to invent a method to over complicated a simple scale.
 
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Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Sorry I can't answer that because but it's a bad way to think of it (IMO) I would never recommend you think Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian for clarity, because there is no clarity.

I can't help feeling that you are trying to run before you can walk, tritone substitutes are a relatively advanced harmonic concept, and I can tell from the wrong assumptions it might be best to learn the very basics of harmony. Sorry to be blunt, but I think it's best to learn simple things before complex things.

So before worrying about tritone substitutions, learn all the chord tones and voice leading tendencies of diatonic sequences before getting onto ones that contain notes outside of the key centre.

Forget Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian. That concept for improvising over a progression is horrible, unmusical and complicated. Especially forget Ionian, it's just a major scale. Learn the major scales, all of them. In 3rds and arpeggiated. Modes are useful when you come to play modal music, which 2 5 1s aren't.

here here!
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

here is how i used to teach tritone substitution in the quick way..read careful and digest !
Ian

tritone substitution = flat 5 substitute

hope that helps, if anyone needs any more explanation indepth just PM me.
Ian

Yes that helped a lot Ian, now I need to print out that and practise it until it's automatic.

Not sure when & how I use it, and if I'll recognize it in a set of chord changes tho!
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Me too.

BTW, this page might help a bit with tritone subs:

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-substitute-chords.html

I find it does actually help if you understand the classical derivation of these. You then see (and hear) why the concept works.


Hi Pete, while since we've spoken...

Wow what a thread this has been. I came in late after your cross reference in the improv thread......

It appears more theory dominated than even the Coursera course.

Absolutely top marks to Thomas .....his digging capacity is immense, if I was a dog I wouldn't bury any bones in his back yard!

1hour digesting this thread...and still need to return later...geezz!

Many great posts! Thanks everyone!
 
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Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Yes that helped a lot Ian, now I need to print out that and practise it until it's automatic.

Not sure when & how I use it, and if I'll recognize it in a set of chord changes tho!
use it over the 5 chord in a 2-5-1... see my other post #32
 
Re: How High The Moon

If I build a chord by piling up three thirds, major or minor then I have 2^3=8 choices which produce 7 of the common jazz chords plus the major major major choice which doesn't have four distinct notes as three major thirds gets an octave. Three of these chords contain a tritone interval made from two adjacent minor thirds. Apart from the dominant the other two are the half diminished and the fully diminished. It is an interesting excercise to work out what the 8 are and notice the triads inside the chords. eg major triad inside a minor seventh.

Is the answer 42?
 
Re: How High The Moon

Two ways to think of tritone substitution replacing one seventh chord with another. First add half an hour on the circle of fourths. eg F7 goes to B7. Second sharp the root and flatten the 5th. The second method produces F# A B Eb a second inversion of the first method. Interesting?

Oh I think it would take me a lot longer than half an hour at this rate!
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

The only advantage is that the name of each scale, e.g. D dorian, G mixolydian, tells you what the root is.]
OK, maybe this is where my misunderstandling lies. Doesn't D Dorian essentially imply Dm7, so the goal would be to have D, F, A anc C some to mind instantly as important notes when thinking "D Dorian"?

But you know that anyway from the name of the chord.

It makes sense if your definition of improvisation is to play an ascending scale of quavers (1/8 notes) on the first beat, from the root note of each chord as it occurs.
But then you might as well say learning chords is only helpful if your definition of improvisation is to play apreggios based on the root. No? To be fair to GB, he did say that just learning to play the scale up and down was essentially useless; you have to learn to play melodies or fragments of melodies using those notes and pay special attention to the chord tones.
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Hi Pete, while since we've spoken...

Wow what a thread this has been. I came in late after your cross reference in the improv thread......

It appears more theory dominated than even the Coursera course.

Absolutely top marks to Thomas .....his digging capacity is immense, if I was a dog I wouldn't bury any bones in his back yard!

1hour digesting this thread...and still need to return later...geezz!

Many great posts! Thanks everyone!

Woof! haha : DogIconNeeded:
 
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Re: How High The Moon

If I build a chord by piling up three thirds, major or minor then I have 2^3=8 choices which produce 7 of the common jazz chords plus the major major major choice which doesn't have four distinct notes as three major thirds gets an octave. Three of these chords contain a tritone interval made from two adjacent minor thirds. Apart from the dominant the other two are the half diminished and the fully diminished. It is an interesting excercise to work out what the 8 are and notice the triads inside the chords. eg major triad inside a minor seventh.

Apologies for last night's flippancy. Brain was totally frazzled with all this chord theory talk. I'm actually a fairly numerate person that likes a bit of a maths challenge now and then but still not quite fancying diving into your exercise at the mo. But I know I probably should and hope I will eventually as I imagine it will prove most educational in putting some of the pieces of the jigsaw together for me.
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

OK, maybe this is where my misunderstandling lies. Doesn't D Dorian essentially imply Dm7, so the goal would be to have D, F, A anc C some to mind instantly as important notes when thinking "D Dorian"?

The word "Dorian" to me does not imply any one chord, it implies WHWWWHW (W = whole tone, H = half or semi tone)



But then you might as well say learning chords is only helpful if your definition of improvisation is to play apreggios based on the root. No?.

Not at all.


Let me put this another way.

You have Dm7 G7 C (maj 7)

Method 1:

You see this as a chord progession which is a 251 cadence. You realise that it is in the key of C major.

So you know that a C major scale will "fit" over the whole thing.

You also know that ideally (when you are experienced enough) you will also know the individual chord tones and what their melodic tendencies are (voice leading, e.g the C of DFAC leads nicely to the B of GBDF)

Method 2

You learn that minor 7s imply a dorian mode, dominant 7s imply a mixolydian mode and maj 7s imply an ionian mode. (None of which is really true in the bigger picture, but let's ignore that)

So:

Over the Dm7 you first work out what a dorian mode is, you then choose some notes of that mode to play
Over the G7 you first work out what a mixolydian mode is, you then choose some notes of that mode to play
Over the C maj7 you first work out what a ionian mode is, you then choose some notes of that mode to play. Ecept you don't really need to, you think major scale. That's why in another post I said forget about Ionian.

Now, you still know that ideally ideally (when you are experienced enough) you will also know the individual chord tones and what their melodic tendencies are (voice leading, e.g the C of DFAC leads nicely to the B of GBDF).

And thinking in modes does not help one iota in that process.

Which is best?

I prefer method 1 because it is simpler and quicker. When you are improvising, as you know, those chord changes are flashing past like telegraph poles on a (non UK) train journey. I just don't have time to be thinking about modes, if I did I would not have time to then make up nice melodic lines, I would probably end up just playing the scale from the root.

And what if the 2 5 1 is Dm7b5 G7 Cmin. Do I really want to delve into the concept of the locrian mode? No I don't thank you very much.

Plus, with method 1 you are forced to look at the entire harmonic progression in context, with method 2 you treat each chord on its own, without the context of the key centre. That is like reading each word on its own instead of glancing at a sentence and understanding it.

Modes

Another difference between thinking of modes when improvising over changes is that pin proper modal music a D Dorian is in the key of D dorian. It is not a C scale starting on D just as in tonal major music a C major scale is not a D dorian starting on C. This just leads to confusion IMO.

It's true, you can think of a tune in A minor as if it's in C major, but with the tonic note being the 6th. But isn't it better to learn it as a minor in its own right?

Same with modes.

Take the A section of Tequila in G. It's a mixolydian mode. It is good to think of it in G with a flattened 7th. I is less useful to think of it as being in C, but with a G root. (edited)

So I like to kep modality for modal music, and not get it involved in tonal chord progressions, especially because it clutters up the mental process.

Disclaimer:

I do believe there is a place for using scales/modes in ore advanced chromatic impro for the sole purpose of instantly adding colourful chromatic notes, but this is quite an advanced concept such as playing G phrygian on a G7 or C Lydian on C major, or using altered or diminished scales to provide b9, #9 etc.

But as I said, that is not something for beginners.
 
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Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Thanks for the long explanation, Pete.

I think i get where you're coming from a bit more now.
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

The analysis and comments in this thread have done 2 things for me

1 - remember the music
2 - I'll remember to stick to learning scales and dicussing mouthpieces.
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

So before worrying about tritone substitutions, learn all the chord tones and voice leading tendencies of diatonic sequences before getting onto ones that contain notes outside of the key centre.

Forget Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian. That concept for improvising over a progression is horrible, unmusical and complicated. Especially forget Ionian, it's just a major scale. Learn the major scales, all of them. In 3rds and arpeggiated. Modes are useful when you come to play modal music, which 2 5 1s aren't.

Ha! This is where I am!
After doing Gary Burtons course, I identified that my first task was to achieve such familiarity with the chord symbols that I have instant recall on what notes go with the chord names.
My teacher set me a task last monday to work round the circle of fifths and at every step play the major triad, 2 octaves up and down, (where possible). Today I got round so much faster that last time.
Before this I would have to stop and work out every note needed in each triad.
Once this gets better, we move onto Major7 triads, I think, then Dominant7, then minor, then minor 7.
If I ever achieve instant recall for those, I'd be really happy :D
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Take the A section of Tequila in G. It's a mixolydian mode. It is good to think of it in G with a flattened 7th. I is less useful to think of it as being in F, but with a G root.

Confused again. Shouldn't that be C with a G root?

(actually I never stopped being confused)
 
Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Ha! This is where I am!
After doing Gary Burtons course, I identified that my first task was to achieve such familiarity with the chord symbols that I have instant recall on what notes go with the chord names.
My teacher set me a task last monday to work round the circle of fifths and at every step play the major triad, 2 octaves up and down, (where possible). Today I got round so much faster that last time.
Before this I would have to stop and work out every note needed in each triad.
Once this gets better, we move onto Major7 triads, I think, then Dominant7, then minor, then minor 7.
If I ever achieve instant recall for those, I'd be really happy :D
If you haven't already, you might want to check out Jerry Coker's "Patterns for Jazz" to work on this kind of thing.
 
Re: How High The Moon

Apologies for last night's flippancy. Brain was totally frazzled with all this chord theory talk.
No offence taken. I am still in the process of learning all the chords and working on PT's first excercise taking a simple 251 round the circle of fourths. That way you get to go through minor7, major7 and dominant7's in all twelve keys in one go. When it comes to an unfamiliar one like Ab_7 having got Ab and found the minor third B all you have to do is add the major B triad B Eb Gb and bingo Ab B Eb Gb which is Ab_7. It's a crutch that works for me. Eventually it will get into the ears and fingers hopefully. It works cos a minor 7 is built from min maj min and a mag triad built from maj min. Note: have edited this. Hope it is right now!
 
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Re: How High The Moon

No offence taken. I am still in the process of learning all the chords and working on PT's first excercise taking a simple 251 round the circle of fourths. That way you get to go through minor7, major7 and dominant7's in all twelve keys in one go. When it comes to an unfamiliar one like Ab_7 having got Ab and found the minor third B all you have to do is add the major B triad B Eb Gb and bingo Ab B Eb Gb which is Ab_7. It's a crutch that works for me. Eventually it will get into the ears and fingers hopefully. It works cos a minor 7 is built from min maj min and a mag triad built from maj min. Note: have edited this. Hope it is right now!

Looks right to me, though of course technically in the Ab7 chord B (the third) should be labelled Cb etc... It sounds like you can trust your ears though, and that's quicker in the long run. You can then start thinking of 'Ab7' referring to the arpeggio/scale pattern your fingers know, rather than having to break it down into the separate notes, with the associated risk of confusing yourself about B sharp and C flat..!

Keep up the good work.

Nick
 

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