251's and Tritone subs

[Sue]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

I've just arrived at this thread and already so much to read and digest. I"m going to have to take this up on a full time basis if I'm going to keep up with the fast moving discussions

 

[Profusia]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

I've just arrived at this thread and already so much to read and digest. I"m going to have to take this up on a full time basis if I'm going to keep up with the fast moving discussions

I wouldn't worry too much about this stuff Sue. Mainly me asking too many questions about stuff I probably need to just take on faith for now.

 

[Sue]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

I've just arrived at this thread and already so much to read and digest. I"m going to have to take this up on a full time basis if I'm going to keep up with the fast moving discussions

I wrote this whilst I was reading the Improvisation thread - so you see how fast it moves - it's now a different thread lol.

I know a lot of you are very familiar with the Cycle of 4ths/5ths and the 6251 / 251 progressions are easily remembered from using that but I thought I'd share (what I consider to be) an easy way to recall these progressions.

I was taught by an old army musician that he learned the progressions around the Cycle/Circle of 4ths (anticlockwise) by saying Fred BEAD George Cross - so F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb/F# B E A D G C. So a 6251 in C is ADGC and in A is F#BEA and so on.

Hope this might help someone

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Over conventional 251's NO jazz player in the world thinks Dorian Mixolydian Ionian.

And anyone who teaches otherwise is very very wrong IMO.

But isn't thinking "C major but higlight the chord tones of Dm7" essentially the same thing as "D Dorian"? And similarly for G Mixo and C Ionian (or whatever key we're in)? Or am I misunderstanding something (genuine question)?

Very different things indeed. If you learn dorian for a Dm7 in the key of C, you miss the whole point of what a mode is. A D dorian has a root of D and is in the key of Dm. If you learn this scale to "fit" a Dm7 you still know nothing about what a Dm7 is, ie the chord tones.

A Dm7 in the key or key centre of C has a root of D certainly, but the tonic note is C. It makes so much more sense to have only one scale for a 2 5 1, ie the scale of the key of that 2 5 1. If its Dm7 G7 C maj7, then a C scale is the most obvious scale to use. Having three scales, each of which is made up of the same notes anyway, is completely pointless and counter productive for this scenario.

It is worth learning the modes though, for when you might play modal music, but not for individual chords in a progression.

 

[saxnik]

Re: How High The Moon

Was looking at the 2nd chord the V7 chord. In their major key example, and assuming I can read base clef (which is questionable) I see the following chords; II DFAC, V GFBD (voice led I think), I CEGB. But what I can't see is any tritones in there so I don't understand their reference to it (the II V7 chord) containing the essential cadential tension of the tritone. .

If you respell your V7 chord as GBDF, you'll see there are three whole tones between B (3rd) and F (flat 7th). When you check the link you'll get it I'm sure, but I thought it might be worth pointing out for someone!

All the best,

Nick

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Having three scales, each of which is made up of the same notes anyway, is completely pointless and counter productive for this scenario.

The only advantage is that the name of each scale, e.g. D dorian, G mixolydian, tells you what the root is.

But you know that anyway from the name of the chord.

It makes sense if your definition of improvisation is to play an ascending scale of quavers (1/8 notes) on the first beat, from the root note of each chord as it occurs.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Fits with my understanding of a tritone which I think (maybe wrong) gets its name from being 3 full tones above the root (i.e. 6 semitones) falling between the the fourth and fifth.

No, you have this a bit wrong. A tritone is an interval of three whole tones, but does not need to be above the root. What you are talking about is a tritone substition in which the root is moved by a tritone to form a new chord (a tritone sub is different to just aa tritone, important to understand the difference).

2. as an improviser taking the whole chordscale up a tritone again to get a jazzier sound.

No, I would forget about chordscales unless you are thinking of a scale for the key centre, as I mentioned previously.

See post 26

So a tritone substitution for Cmaj7 would have root F# and I assume would be the same structure i.e. F#maj7. Is that correct?

A tritone substition is for dominant chords, not tonic or major 7 chords.

So if we saw Dm7, G7, F#maj7, we might think oh that's just a II V I in C major with a tritone substituted for the I chord. (Not sure if anyone would actually substitute the I chord but that;s not important now).

It is very important, because that would not happen. F#maj7 in no way implies C major. A tritone substitute would be Dm Db7 Cmaj7

But would we then play C Ionian or F# Ionian over the F#maj7 chord? It would seem very colourful to play 7 naturals over a chord with 3 sharp notes in the chord tones. But maybe that's the point?

Conversely can we really play an F# Ionian over a Cmaj chord to get a jazzy sound? It sounds the kind of thing I do regularly by mistake and instantly wish the floor would swallow me up.

Please tell me I've got something wrong here?!

You've got something wrong here!

Please forget about Ionions. Life is too complicated already.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: How High The Moon

Was looking at the 2nd chord the V7 chord. In their major key example, and assuming I can read base clef (which is questionable) I see the following chords; II DFAC, V GFBD (voice led I think), I CEGB. But what I can't see is any tritones in there so I don't understand their reference to it (the II V7 chord)

The chord V GFBD has the tritone = FB (F to B is three whole tones, ie a tritone). These notes create tension and cause the voice leading tendencies, the B wants to resove up to the C of a c chord, and the F wants to resolve down to the E of the C chord.

Find a keyboard and play in your right hand F and a B above it. Now move the B up a semitone and the F down a semitone. You will hear the tension of the tritone resolve to the harmonious loveliness of the implied tonic.

It makes even more sense if you play the roots in your left hand:


LH G down to C

while at the same time

RH B up to C and F down to E

These are the main elements of a perfect cadence.

 

[Profusia]

Re: How High The Moon

If you respell your V7 chord as GBDF, you'll see there are three whole tones between B (3rd) and F (flat 7th). When you check the link you'll get it I'm sure, but I thought it might be worth pointing out for someone!

All the best,

Nick

Thanks Nick. Crikey is that it then? So the tritone is the interval from 3rd to 7th, NOT a tritone to any of the roots? I'd NEVER have spotted that! Thanks.

 

[thesaxman71]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

So a tritone substitution for Cmaj7 would have root F# and I assume would be the same structure i.e. F#maj7. Is that correct?

you substitute the 5th of a starting key to create the tritone.
so to apply a tritone over a simple 2-5-1 in C - Dm-G7-C you would substitute the 5 chord and get Dm-Db*-C

*TRITONE SUB = you lower the 5 chord by a semitone

also playing Db over a 2-5-1 in C is fine, try it, put the 2-5-1 on a loop and play over it alternating between regular notes in the 5 chord and tritone notes on the 5th chord. it takes a little time for your ears to get used to it but it is a nice sound.

 

[Profusia]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Thanks for trying to clarify this. Its basically been a bit of a trail of wrong assumptions (by me) and misunderstandings based on piecemeal information trying to build a whole picture and failing miserably.

No, you have this a bit wrong. A tritone is an interval of three whole tones, but does not need to be above the root. What you are talking about is a tritone substition (not a tritone, important to understand the difference).

I'd only come across the term tritone in ear training and so had assumed it was the name for the interval above the root (as in the fourth and a half) but its clicked now. We were originally talking about tritone substitution chords and I wanted to understand whether to stay in the key of the original chord, or change to the key of the substituted chord. Still not sure. Reference was made to an article which mentioned "cadential tension of the tritone" in V dom7 chords which I couldn't understand as couldn't see the tritone interval. Got it now.

A tritone substition is for dominant chords, not tonic or major 7 chords.

It is very important, because that would not happen. F#maj7 in no way implies C major. A tritone substitute would be Dm Db7 Cmaj7

Yes got that now. As I said I suspected that they wouldn't apply to major chords (but didn't understand why at the time) and it was only unimportant in terms of the question I was asking at the time which was what chordscale or key is best played over a tritone substituted chord. So in your example above would it be best/safe to continue to play all notes natural as if in C major throughout the V Db7 chord or should some adjustment be made to thinking over that chord? With the flats in a Db7 chord (not to mention so many flats in the Db mixolydian chordscale I'd normally think to apply) its hard to imagine playing all naturals is the best option but maybe that's just jazz?

You've got something wrong here!

Please forget about Ionions. Life is too complicated already.

The reference to Ionians was because of the wrong assumption regarding tritone substitutions for major chords instead of dominant chords. But the question still stands, in a major II V I progression with a tritone substitution should we just play through the whole progression as if always in the same major key (i.e. yes Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian for clarity even if its a bad way to think of it) or should we change anything in terms of note choices for the V chord? (I've already asked this above effectively so any one answer to either would be great)

The chord V GFBD has the tritone = FB (F to B is three whole tones, ie a tritone). These notes create tension and cause the voice leading tendencies, the B wants to resove up to the C of a c chord, and the F wants to resolve down to the E of the C chord.

Find a keyboard and play in your right hand F and a B above it. Now move the B up a semitone and the F down a semitone. You will hear the tension of the tritone resolve to the harmonious loveliness of the implied tonic.

It makes even more sense if you play the roots in your left hand:


LH G down to C

while at the same time

RH B up to C and F down to E

These are the main elements of a perfect cadence.

Thanks I'll try that when I get a chance.

 

[Profusia]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

you substitute the 5th of a starting key to create the tritone.
so to apply a tritone over a simple 2-5-1 in C - Dm-G7-C you would substitute the 5 chord and get Dm-Gb*-C

*TRITONE SUB

also playing Gb (F# as you are calling it) over a 2-5-1 in C is fine, try it, put the 2-5-1 on a loop and play over it alternating between regular notes in the 5 chord and tritone notes on the 5th chord. it takes a little time for your ears to get used to it but it is a nice sound.

Oh no now you've just confused me even further!

I thought I'd just about managed to pick up from all the other sources that the tritone substitution chord would have its root 3 whole tones (6 semitones) above the root of the V chord that it was replacing?

I can't take any more - I'm going for a swim!

PS the F# thing is just because I think better in sharps. Not that it appears to be doing me any good.

 

[thesaxman71]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Oh no now you've just confused me even further!

I thought I'd just about managed to pick up from all the other sources that the tritone substitution chord would have its root 3 whole tones (6 semitones) above the root of the V chord that it was replacing?

I can't take any more - I'm going for a swim!

PS the F# thing is just because I think better in sharps. Not that it appears to be doing me any good.

haha thats what happens when you ask for theory, many alternate answers or i could say tritone answers!
i re-edited my post, i typed the wrong note, my mind was elsewhere, doh! that's probably why you were confused

don't forget your waterwings!

 

[BrianJoeSandy]

Re: How High The Moon

Thanks Nick. Crikey is that it then? So the tritone is the interval from 3rd to 7th, NOT a tritone to any of the roots? I'd NEVER have spotted that! Thanks.

If I build a chord by piling up three thirds, major or minor then I have 2^3=8 choices which produce 7 of the common jazz chords plus the major major major choice which doesn't have four distinct notes as three major thirds gets an octave. Three of these chords contain a tritone interval made from two adjacent minor thirds. Apart from the dominant the other two are the half diminished and the fully diminished. It is an interesting excercise to work out what the 8 are and notice the triads inside the chords. eg major triad inside a minor seventh.

 

[saxplorer]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

2... you flatten the 5th note (or dominant) of your starting scale and turn it into the new substituted scale or tritone (flat 5) substitution

If you're familiar with the circle (cycle?) of 5ths, then the tritone is always directly opposite your starting point.

So .....

C is at 12 o-clock -> tritone sub is at 6 o'clock = F# (Gb)
B is at 5 o'clock -> tritone sub is at 11 o'clock = F
A is at 3 o'clock -> tritone sub is at 9 o'clock = Eb

etc

 

[BrianJoeSandy]

Re: How High The Moon

Two ways to think of tritone substitution replacing one seventh chord with another. First add half an hour on the circle of fourths. eg F7 goes to B7. Second sharp the root and flatten the 5th. The second method produces F# A B Eb a second inversion of the first method. Interesting?

 

[Chris]

Re: How High The Moon

Just call it bV7 of V7

I know I'm leaving..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

But the question still stands, in a major II V I progression with a tritone substitution should we just play through the whole progression as if always in the same major key (i.e. yes Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian for clarity even if its a bad way to think of it)

Sorry I can't answer that because but it's a bad way to think of it (IMO) I would never recommend you think Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian for clarity, because there is no clarity.

I can't help feeling that you are trying to run before you can walk, tritone substitutes are a relatively advanced harmonic concept, and I can tell from the wrong assumptions it might be best to learn the very basics of harmony. Sorry to be blunt, but I think it's best to learn simple things before complex things.

So before worrying about tritone substitutions, learn all the chord tones and voice leading tendencies of diatonic sequences before getting onto ones that contain notes outside of the key centre.

Forget Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian. That concept for improvising over a progression is horrible, unmusical and complicated. Especially forget Ionian, it's just a major scale. Learn the major scales, all of them. In 3rds and arpeggiated. Modes are useful when you come to play modal music, which 2 5 1s aren't.

 

[Di in France]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Sorry I can't answer that because but it's a bad way to think of it (IMO) I would never recommend you think Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian for clarity, because there is no clarity.

I can't help feeling that you are trying to run before you can walk, tritone substitutes are a relatively advanced harmonic concept, and I can tell from the wrong assumptions it might be best to learn the very basics of harmony. Sorry to be blunt, but I think it's best to learn simple things before complex things.

So before worrying about tritone substitutions, learn all the chord tones and voice leading tendencies of diatonic sequences before getting onto ones that contain notes outside of the key centre.

Forget Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian. That concept for improvising over a progression is horrible, unmusical and complicated. Especially forget Ionian, it's just a major scale. Learn the major scales, all of them. In 3rds and arpeggiated. Modes are useful when you come to play modal music, which 2 5 1s aren't.

Thank you Pete, this whole thread was confusing me so much. As far as learning the scales, arpeggios etc, I can do that!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Re: Gary Burtons Improv Course!!!

Thank you Pete, this whole thread was confusing me so much.

Me too.

BTW, this page might help a bit with tritone subs:

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-substitute-chords.html

I find it does actually help if you understand the classical derivation of these. You then see (and hear) why the concept works.