Tech/maintenance My new "DIY" pads...

LostCircuits · Jan 13, 2022

DavidUK said:
I'd like to be able to play very fast passages with any setup!

What's your thought... that they may fall out at speed?

I don't think it's going to be a problem, and in addition you could potentially "key" the pegs to eliminate any rotational movement. The rare earth magnets should be strong enough to hold the pads in place no matter what. I think it's a great idea, the only problem I see is cost.

LostCircuits · Jan 13, 2022

Theoretically, you could take this to the next level and eliminate the cups altogether, which would save a lot of weight. The only issue would be that you'd have to be very careful not to touch the pads.

Phil · Jan 13, 2022

I really think you need the key cups. You really need to sheild the pads or it will be a PIA to play. Additionally, it kills the chance of being used on any existing quality instrument. No one os gonna cut up their sax to use new fangled pads. It is theoretically interesting but impractical. On top of that, most players are really tied heavily to convention.

DavidUK · Jan 13, 2022

@Phil - The new thin stainless pad backing disc does the same job as the key cup it's currently fixed to. It doesn't have sides to it like the cup so it lacks protection there but I can't really see why a key cup has sides other than to easily locate the pad within it. Is there really that much "attack" on pads from the sides?
Mine are located by the central hole/screw. No sides needed.
Or did you mean something else by "shield"?

Don't forget a newly made sax could do away with the weight of the key cups and so this may be attractive to buyers of new models incorporating my design, but I do appreciate you may not wish to cut off your MkVI cups. That's why my system is designed to fit into key cups with no modification as well. So you don't have to alter anything.

The real market for this design is in the future. We often don't want to modify anything old, be it horns, cars, anything with a perceived "value" as is. We do however like to update our Victorian houses to incorporate modern devices and materials and also build new houses using modern technology, but only if we're sure there's an advantage.

Convention takes time to change, and manufacturers will be led by what they think their customers want.
I'm totally with it that folks don't like change much, especially after 150 years. That's why we're all still riding horses, right?

Stephen Howard · Jan 13, 2022

DavidUK said:
Might go to Steve Howard first to iron out any design issues if he'd care to assist in its design rather than simply review. I have very little machining equipment here, he'll have it all!

I'm out.
Don't get me wrong - it's an interesting idea but once you get beyond a certain level of playing, feel and response becomes incredibly important. Anything that diminishes it is what people pay me good money to remove.
This is the major problem with self-levelling systems - they're simply not fast or reliable enough beyond playing Watermelon Man in your bedroom.

Colin the Bear · Jan 13, 2022

Cups shield from finger overshoot.

squeak · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
...playing Watermelon Man in your bedroom.

Is this aimed at me? Are you spying???

Stephen Howard · Jan 13, 2022

squeak said:
Is this aimed at me? Are you spying???

....and you're a bit flat past top A....

Phil · Jan 13, 2022

Dont get me wrong. Im all for it. Im just pointing out some significant obstacles. Frankly the best way to overcome them is by slow growth and no needing to support yourself. Ive seen a lot of businesses fold because the lack of adequate funding after the first big push. The best way to survive is to not need the income...until it comes.

Guys try to make a big splash with mpc. Lots of interest up front but no foundation to last. Everyone goes in to make a killing...it doesn't happen. I think I survived 17 years because I actually started Phil-tone as a tax write off.

Anyway follow your passion and enjoy. Doing that you always win.

Pete Thomas · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
....and you're a bit flat past top A....

Well, that's better than being out of tune.

DavidUK · Jan 13, 2022

Steve and Phil - one of the reasons I'm "going to press" now is that I won't have thought of every problem players and repairers would.

I don't want to spend tens of thousands marketing and manufacturing a product which won't work, notwithstanding convention will suppress innovation in any event.

I'll take on board what anyone says and take all their comments, criticisms, and reservations as constructive. That's what I'm after.

LostCircuits · Jan 13, 2022

Keep in mind that many of the problems were already cited when somebody proposed to put a motor in a horse buggy.

Stephen Howard · Jan 13, 2022

DavidUK said:
I'll take on board what anyone says and take all their comments, criticisms, and reservations as constructive. That's what I'm after.

OK...
Self-levelling pads aren't new. Go back a few hundred years and you'll find flutes and clarinets with 'pewter plugs' - conical pads made out of pewter, loosely held in a key, which sat in a correspondingly tapered tonehole. It didn't work very well.
You can change the material, you can change the self-levelling mechanism - but you will always end up with that split-second delay while the 'pad' sorts itself out.
You're trying to re-invent a wheel that's already been invented...and discarded.
If you really want to push the innovative boat out, go for electronics.

LostCircuits · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
OK...
Self-levelling pads aren't new. Go back a few hundred years and you'll find flutes and clarinets with 'pewter plugs' - conical pads made out of pewter, loosely held in a key, which sat in a correspondingly tapered tonehole. It didn't work very well.
You can change the material, you can change the self-levelling mechanism - but you will always end up with that split-second delay while the 'pad' sorts itself out.
You're trying to re-invent a wheel that's already been invented...and discarded.
If you really want to push the innovative boat out, go for electronics.

I think I'll disagree on this one. What was done 100 years ago, certainly had merit but technology and materials have evolved way past what was possible 100 years ago. Also, the reason why many of the more advanced solutions ultimately failed were not always technical but plain and simple stonewalling and badmouthing by the competition.

There is nothing wrong with taking a fresh look at some of the things that were deemed impossible 100 years ago. I personally would like to see hydraulic key mechanisms or even use of microcontrollers (as you stated) and I am sure it will come a few years from now.

Stephen Howard · Jan 13, 2022

LostCircuits said:
I think I'll disagree on this one. What was done 100 years ago, certainly had merit but technology and materials have evolved way past what was possible 100 years ago. Also, the reason why many of the more advanced solutions ultimately failed were not always technical but plain and simple stonewalling and badmouthing by the competition.

There is nothing wrong with taking a fresh look at some of the things that were deemed impossible 100 years ago. I personally would like to see hydraulic key mechanisms or even use of microcontrollers (as you stated) and I am sure it will come a few years from now.

For sure...new materials, and all that - but the basic premise is exactly the same. A free-floating pad that self aligns.
It has never worked (beyond bedroom Watermelon Man).

I have no need to badmouth the competition, given that I'm wholly independent of such things - I merely comment on the technical aspects.

And yes, a fresh look would be most welcome - but this magnet affair is just a rehash of a system that failed hundreds of years ago. The materials have changed, but not the physics. Show me something new.

LostCircuits · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
I have no need to badmouth the competition, given that I'm wholly independent of such things - I merely comment on the technical aspects.

I was definitely not implying that, I know you are one of the "bad ass" good guys 😎

mizmar · Jan 13, 2022

Stephen Howard said:
you will always end up with that split-second delay while the 'pad' sorts itself out.

Just out of idle curiosity, couldn't a self-levelling pad system be made with some "stiffness" or friction so that they don't actually float freely and wabble when lifted, ie kept alignment; but with enough movement so that they alligned, if out of alignment, when contacting the chimney? Maybe a small ball-and-socket, tight enough so the pad doesn't move under force of it's own weight, but would move due to impact force.

Phil · Jan 13, 2022

So you are describing more of a self correcting pad as opposed to a self leveling pad that changes every time the key opens and closes. Perhaps it would work and be faster by reducing each split second sort out.