Playing the saxophone What is or isn’t rock and roll?

[lydian]

My rather simplistic reply would be: If it's rock that swings, it's rock & roll; rock that doesn't swing, is rock (without the roll). I much prefer rock & roll.

Hmm. I don't know about that. Tunes like Johnny B. Goode are very straight but most definitely Rock & Roll. But honestly, I think they're synonymous.

 

[JSL]

Hmm. I don't know about that. Tunes like Johnny B. Goode are very straight but most definitely Rock & Roll. But honestly, I think they're synonymous.

Good point, Lydian. There are always exceptions and that would surely be one. I'm using "swing" in a pretty loose way. A shuffle rhythm would qualify for rock & roll. Ultimately, it's difficult to pigeonhole these genres.

 

[Steve Marshall]

There's a lot of stuff like Lloyd Price or Louis Jordan that I think of as 'pre-rock n roll'. Some of the early sax players - honkers and squealers produced music that is kind of like RnR but isn't. Those early sax players coupled with boogie woogie and suchlike led to RnR, but I think it started with Bill Hailey and Elvis, even if they nicked much of their material from black artists. Afterwards any kind of rock seems to get labelled RnR when it is some other kind of rock. Labels become meaningless, but RnR was dance music so should have the right sort of rhythm.

 

[JayeNM]

Shooting the TV (used in an early remote control fashion) used to be the rock n roll way of turning off the TV.
In the early’70’s, you could chuck it out your penthouse suite window making it difficult to ever turn on again due to it being in one or two pieces more than it was designed to be.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP9dlTornbM

 

[PiccoloPirate]

It's all rock and roll to me.
Straight or Shuffle, but always, LOUD.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JVlpm0eRs

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEm3Kx7bAxo

 

[JayeNM]

Maybe over simplified, but to me a shuffle is just a swing beat that is played by drums sans relying on ride cymbal...

Also rock swing/shuffle relies more on regular 2/4 snare hits....as opposed to jazz snare hits....but it's still swing, IMHO

Above vids, Huey not swing, but straight 8th's....Billy tune is a swing shuffle...

 

[thomsax]

Was it the rhytm/beat? The everyday and, somtimes mumbo jumbo lyrics? Was it the hook? Was it the electric bass or the electric guitar that gave us Rock & Roll? Little Richard or Bill Haily? Maybe "Rock & Roll" is just a name the activity that took place in a big car with swampy suspension? Was it the Dj Allan Freed who used the expression "Rock & Roll" in his shows? Or was it Wild Bill Moore with his song from 1949 called "Rock & Roll ". I don't know, I just know that a like R&B and Rock & Roll and some of the stuff that later on just calls "Rock".

Before internet I got most of my information from magazines and books.

View: https://youtu.be/_dHcLJS4zDw?si=goVqj01PrcqFwyOk

 

[Pete Thomas]

Was it the electric bass or the electric guitar that gave us Rock & Roll

More likely it was teenage rebellion needing a music it could call its own.

 

[Dr G]

Maybe business is more important when we get a new musical genre. Forget tradition ..... . Some guys were considered more rock & roll than others. Who draw the line.

A guy in USA transcribe songs for me. We wanted to play a verison the country blues "MIdnight Hour Blues" by Leroy Carr. I listened to Elvin Bishop's version and that was a songs we could try play with our group. A country blues from the 30's with piano player, but it was guitarist Elvin Bishop's version which made impact on us. So the 12 bar country blues turned to a 12 bar country rock.


View attachment 34109

Here is Elvin Bishop's version.

View: https://youtu.be/ze-3K4ekfvE?si=2USDIHc_CMCD8Nkn

“Country rock” as notated is a note to the drummer so they can pick up a chart and know how to subdivide the beat without having a long discussion regarding the arranger’s intent. Similarly, one may see “Jazz rock”, “Shuffle”, or Swing“.

Does the beat define the genre?

 

[Dr G]

“Country rock” as notated is a note to the drummer so they can pick up a chart and know how to subdivide the beat without having a long discussion regarding the arranger’s intent. Similarly, one may see “Jazz rock”, “Shuffle”, or Swing“.

Does the beat define the genre?

P.S and OBTW: Thanks for the nod to Elvin Bishop. I am a longtime fan and have heard him live several times. He is SO much fun in a small setting. I have seen him invite people strum his guitar while he frets, as well as walk across tables and chairs while he solos. Quite the charismatic showman.

 

[Pete Thomas]

“Country rock” as notated is a note to the drummer so they can pick up a chart and know how to subdivide the beat without having a long discussion regarding the arranger’s intent. Similarly, one may see “Jazz rock”, “Shuffle”, or Swing“.

As a composer I’ve never done that without proper notation to give more context to the actual beat. It’s a lazy way to write a chart. It can sort of work provided there is some rehearsal but IMO it leaves too much much room for (erroneous) interpretation.

 

[Dr G]

As a composer I’ve never done that without proper notation to give more context to the actual beat. It’s a lazy way to write a chart. It can sort of work provided there is some rehearsal but IMO it leaves too much much room for (erroneous) interpretation.

My bad - I should have said that it’s a note to everyone else to expect the drummer to play that style.

 

[Woodpad]

My bad - I should have said that it’s a note to everyone else to expect the drummer to play that style.

Does this expect-um patronus do the magic?

 

[Dr G]

Does this expect-um patronus do the magic?

Do you have a question?

 

[mizmar]

Does this expect-um patronus do the magic?

Some Harry Potter thing?

Younger generation, these days...

 

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe over simplified, but to me a shuffle is just a swing beat that is played by drums sans relying on ride cymbal...

Different thing for me where shuffle means the 1/8s are played as a triplet feel. Swing is often used to mean long - short 1/8s but I don’t think it is necessarily divided into strict triplet feel. In fact I think you can make something swing while playing straight 8s. This is more of an opinion than anything.

Possibly kicking against when I’ve seen people instruct “how to swing” and say to play a triplet style. Merely doing that is not a recipe for swing.

 

[JayeNM]

interesting , well...a swing beat utilizes 8ths on the ride, but not necessarily straight 8ths.

Likewise, a shuffle can utilize 8ths, usually hihat...but doesn't gotta be straight 8ths... so maybe we have different interpretations.
Presence or absence of triplets not a defining trait, IMHO.


To you, is this a shuffle ?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm3jthxADyo

I consider it to be.

Whereas this is neither shuffle nor swing....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YenWxf40Ce4

 

[JayeNM]

Was it the electric bass or the electric guitar that gave us Rock & Roll?

Digression....the first electric bass playing which made it to public ear was actually the bassist in Lionel Hampton's big band. He gigged with the earliest version of the Fender Precision....pretty primitive compared to what we are familiar with a Precision being....

 

[JayeNM]

View: https://youtu.be/_dHcLJS4zDw?si=goVqj01PrcqFwyOk

Yes, very interesting....this one can be categorized a number of ways.

I mean, it wouldn't be unfair to say it has jazz elements, or blues. Some might call it swing.

It reminds me of Jumpin' Jive....

Honestly, if someone asked me 'is this Rock & Roll ?".....my reply would likely be "No".

 

[JayeNM]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWPLs85liR4