Playing the saxophone Are you or were you self taught?

[SuperAction80]

Back in high school, our jazz band had a clinic. The clinician asked a few of us whether or not we were studying the horn. Up to that point, I had no formal lessons, so I answered no. My friend was quick to jump in and correct me stating that I was reading, studying, and listening to a ton of material. Which, obviously, means that I was studying the saxophone. It was a profound thought at the time. There's a point in your thinking in which you think no lessons = self taught. However, when you're listening and learning from better players, and you're taking that knowledge to make yourself a better player, are you really self taught after that point? After consulting player after player asking them how to do something that you can't, and learning how to do things based upon what they tell you, well what do you think lessons are? I think that most players begin the journey as being self taught, but those who stick with it end up being taught by everyone around them. At a certain point, and don't ask me what the threshold is, one is no longer in the "self taught" territory.

 

[Vlad]

Essentially 'DIY.'. I had two or three lessons when I first got a battered old saxophone ( i was about 17 ) but didn't really feel there was much point, I tried again a couple of years later but had the same feeling so that was it for me.
I was pretty much straight away into playing in Punk / rock type bands ( it being the 70s) and just made stuff up to suit ongoing, so my reading kind of went out of the window too !
ps I'm certainly not recommending anyone else to take this kind of approach btw ! 😉

 

[Grumps]

Thankfully I had a public school music education which at some point involved a psychopathic instructor whose methods in today's world would have likely landed her in prison. I owe so very, very much to her.

 

[atwl77]

In terms of saxophone playing, I guess I consider myself self-taught. Outside of that, I suppose not, though it gets a little fuzzy...

Back in primary school, a long time ago, is where I learnt to read dots and play the recorder. I also played the pianica (melodica) in the school "band" at that time. I only call it a band because all we did was play the national, state, and school anthem weekly during assembly, as well as maybe one or two special occasions. But that was ages ago. Still, somehow I retained most of that knowledge, even though I had plenty of gaps of no exposure or practice.

In university, although I was doing Computer Science, but I spent a bunch of my optional/elective courses in the Music department -- but those were all Music Technology courses (e.g. software, recording, etc), i.e. nothing that required a formal grade in music or in an instrument. There was one particular course I wanted to take but required Grade 5 theory, and so I "self-taught" myself and then took the ABRSM Grade 5 on my own.

That itself was a bit of an amusing story, now that I think about it. I studied the little blue AB Guide to Music Theory book and then, once I thought I was ready, just randomly showed up at one of the nearby music shops and asked to take the exam. They initially refused, of course, citing how I was not their student and would risk their reputation if I failed the exam, but somehow I managed to persuade them to register me and when the exam date came up, I managed to pass. But I think it was just a pass (if I remember correctly there were three grades, a really good pass, just a pass, and a fail).

But that was as far as my "formal" music education went; everything else I learnt either from books (back in the day before Internet was this big), or nowadays, YouTube and such.

 

[Dr G]

On the Café Forum, you know you're self-taught if someone posts "you should get a teacher"!

Yep. After a person posts that they've been playing for x years and still cannot get a good tone or control their intonation, it's a good idea to reconsider whether "self-taught" remains a prudent path to practice. They don't have to take the advice, but maybe it's worth a thought to get them on track.

For those that take pride in flailing their way through mediocrity, go for it. I would get frustrated and quit (like I did with my first guitar that was really quite terrible). I support their endeavor as long as I don't have to listen to them.

 

[atwl77]

For those that take pride in flailing their way through mediocrity, go for it. I would get frustrated and quit (like I did with my first guitar that was really quite terrible). I support their endeavor as long as I don't have to listen to them.

Reminds me of the time I tried to self-teach myself guitar. The "frustrated and quit" part happened at barre chords.

I think one major difference between then and now, was the Internet. Back then it was all just books, chord charts, and playing along with songs. No structure, no practice plan, just do whatever. So either you need a good teacher to show you the ropes, or at the minimum have a very solid foundation in music that you can lean back on in order to learn a new instrument.

Now, both Internet and YouTube are full of proper guides (as long as you can sort though the mess and riff raff), especially on things like teaching you proper practice routine. A teacher can still be a good thing, of course, but perhaps not as critical as in the old days.

But every once in a while, I dust off the old guitar, and still get frustrated by barre chords, lol.

 

[thomsax]

I consider myself to be "self learned" (autodidakt). Nothing I decided back in 68-69. I just want to blow sax when I couldn't do something that I liked more. I liked to listen to Rock, sould, R&B ... and I heard a sax almost every day.

To learn myself to play in the tradition of saxplayers I heard on recordings was natural to me. I had to play a lot to be able to play something I was pleased with.

After 6 years I went to my first blues/rock jam. Big fun. I was able to play the riffs in Muddy Waters Hochie Cochie Man / I'm A Man in/with small group. Warm and friendly atmosphere. Often an older (than me) player that sang or told me what tones to play. "Just follow me ....".

Stubborn, thick forehead and to find it's ok play things over and over ..... is my thing. And I spiced that with curiosity as well. Must be another way to do this .....? I played football, so I could fill up a big mouthpiece and I could also get a hard to move/vibrate.

"Hang on, you’ve been playing for 8 years or more. Are you telling us in that time there are no tunes you actually know well?"

When I read the comment I thought; that could be me as well. I have been playing since 1968, more or less, and I don't know so many songs well. Is that bad or good? I just remember fun and songs I like. Why should I play like a pro when I'm just playing for fun.

 

[cappers]

I would get frustrated and quit (like I did with my first guitar that was really quite terrible).

Yes. I didn't mention my very brief attempt at learning acoustic guitar in my late teens.
No teacher, just a tab book. I only tried because I thought it was 'cool' not because I really wanted to play guitar. Quit after a couple of months.

The difference learning the sax nearly fifty years later is that I'm playing an instruement I love the sound of, am motivated, disciplined and patient. Doubt I could have done it solo though, I value and enjoy my lessons.

 

[JayeNM]

I want to address a couple of assumptions that have cropped up in this thread. First, the idea that “reading the dots” is important. I won’t say that being able to read well hasn’t helped me professionally, but has it helped me be a better musician? I have to say, after 65 years of playing saxophone (68 on clarinet), the answer is “no”.

Good post, I agree mostly, just wanna play devil's advocate with above comment tho.

"has it made me a better player?" you mean ?

Because I would say the expectation in many if not most genres would be "a musician can read music".

So, with exception of the drummer and perhaps vocalist (yes, classic jokes abound) I think a HORN PLAYER being able to read would be a practical litmus test in "musicianship".

Not to digress too much....

 

[Vlad]

'Bluffing' guitar is a piece of cake.... dial in some suitable distortion and then just do the two finger, two note 'fifths' thing and move up and down the neck as req. you can now play most basic rock songs 😉

 

[Wade Cornell]

It's surprising how many respondents have somewhat similar stories. I had a lot of musical influence growing up as my father was a professional musician, however he retired by the time I came along due to a physical condition (colostomy). He still played, but not publicly. His cronies would come around and play music. Our house was open for pianists to come and practice before concerts (we had two back to back grand pianos). I nearly wore out our 78 RPM recordings the opera Carmen and Rhapsody in Blue. Piano lessons came at 7 years old, so I learned to read and play music. Clarinet lessons at 10 then oboe and eventually sax lessons for a year with Merle Johnston (who taught Allard and Teal + many others). There were then bands and all the rest of it, but I switched to singing and was for a short time a professional. However the lifestyle sucked (but not the sex), and I needed to get out of it and do something different. I went back to university and went on from there in other professional pursuits.

Singing in choirs and opera choruses kept me involved, but was not a professional gig. All along I played sax with friends just jamming. I was very interested in modern Classical music and the jazz that came about post standards and Bop that bloomed in the mid 1960s through 80s (a lot of ECM stuff). Also all ethnic music. Lots of influences.

It's taken the rest of my life for all of this to digest and come out in my playing. All of the teaching part was mechanics, I only become a player when I started to hear what I wanted to play and was able to accomplish that. It wouldn't have been as easy if I'd had to do it all without technical guidance or the influences. Throughout that period I absorbed, yet didn't wish to copy any of it. The goal was always to come to music as myself with whatever I had to offer. I've had no desire to be a technical player with the singular goal of impressing a listener. The aim has been to be myself and try to communicate stories, feelings, and emotions. Mostly melodic playing with others via file sharing. There's lots of examples on this site in the forums Wikiloops section Wikiloops on the Café - Backing Tracks

I haven't bothered to play written music for over 25 years and everything I play is improvisation. This includes gigs, however none of it is "free jazz". There's always structure, meaning and flow.

 

[SuperAction80]

Thankfully I had a public school music education which at some point involved a psychopathic instructor whose methods in today's world would have likely landed her in prison. I owe so very, very much to her.

Not all of us had similar stories. Grumps lived through the movie "Whiplash". One of the best musicians you'll meet (his name and instrument will be omitted) knew that people like Terence Fletcher exist. We had a long series of jokes about it after the movie came out. David Liebman freaking out over the existence of the movie may be more telling than what he wanted to lead on. Either that, or he went through life with a very specific set of blinders. I've met a few short tempered psychopaths that play instruments. I've done my best to ignore them and avoid them. Nobody has time for the nonsense they bring. On that note, it's worth studying their habits with the instrument. The imagined prestige is all they got in life. There are good tips in commanding the instrument in there. Outside of that, follow NONE of their advice.

 

[Zasterz]

"has it made me a better player?" you mean ?

Also worth pointing out that if I hadn’t been able to read I wouldn’t have gotten some opportunities which really ended up advancing my musicianship. So for me it was a gateway at the very least. (Not that everyone needs to take the same path.)

 

[atwl77]

'Bluffing' guitar is a piece of cake.... dial in some suitable distortion and then just do the two finger, two note 'fifths' thing and move up and down the neck as req. you can now play most basic rock songs 😉

lol... those are power chords. I played around with them for fun when I was learning the guitar. Add some right hand palm muting technique and you can do a pretty convincing performance to easily fool non-musicians.

A couple of other instruments have such "cheats":

With bass, just learn the same power chord, play the 1st and maybe the 5th on the beat (easiest maybe just play the root note every beat) and you can fool people, lol.

Drums, can just learn some very basic rock patterns and maybe a simple 1-beat or 2-beat snare fill and you're good to go!

Piano might be a bit trickier, but just play 1 and 5 on the right hand, and 1-5-8 arpeggio on the left hand.

Get these four "pretenders" together and, as long as the drummer can keep a steady beat, and everyone else can follow, and you've got a pretty neat band -- albeit just doing power chords and roots and 5ths will get pretty boring and samey quite fast! 😀

 

[skeller047]

About reading. I read well and was a good high-school musician. Then, while a senior, I joined a funk band. No reading involved. We played for dances every week. We all soon learned what was required to keep the kids on the dance floor. Which also meant we would have a gig or three the next week 🙂

I did get a lot of very good professional jobs because I read music well. But I have never ever forgotten the musicianship lessons I learned in that funk band.

 

[PigSquealer]

Self taught here.
Lessons yeah, every time I fix one it teaches me a lesson or 24 on playing. Sometimes even in tune.

 

[thomsax]

A self-learned sax player = a bad player?

Maybe "profile of demands" to be a saxplayer (on diffent levels) is too much about how to please the teacher, parents, band directors .... ? Music education has , more or less, been the same since late the 40's.

Why are adult players asking about reeds, mouthpieces ..... when money is not a problem? Where is the curiosity?

An autodidact person is not only about "self learning". Often there is a deep interest to learn something without guided instructions by a teacher, high self-motivation, the striving to care less about learning institutions, to controll "my own" destiny ....

I'm an autodidact! But I respect research and science.

 

[dexdex]

Hi all. Interesting thread, cool real life stories.
I’ve had 2 years of formal training on clarinet as a teenager. Only 2, because I disliked the whole process, and the horn altogether.
I did another year on trombone. Didn’t insist either, though I played that horn in bands for a decade.
Totally self-taught on saxes, building upon the embouchure and fingerings learned on the black stick, and good air stream skills from the bone.
Moving from a pinched clarinet embouchure to the adequate technique on all saxes took many years. This is where the guidance of a good teacher could have helped.
Playing in bands, and observing fellows was one of my schools.
The baritone sax was a true aha experience, eventually helping to build a decent relaxed embouchure on all horns, clarinet included.

 

[Targa]

Not only playing the sax but also all the useful things I know that are needed in life I have taught myself, DIY for painting and decorating, woodworking, car mechanics, electrical, plumbing, horticulture etc.
A lot of trial and error made up for by satisfaction of success.
Virtually all I learned at school was how to pass an exam.

 

[lydian]

Thankfully I had a public school music education which at some point involved a psychopathic instructor whose methods in today's world would have likely landed her in prison. I owe so very, very much to her.

Same! Mine even threw a chair at us once, and that was in middle school! But we were an excellent band since we were terrified of making mistakes.