Playing the saxophone Are you or were you self taught?

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Well, I'll be first. I don't know whether my personal experience will be instructive in any way, or maybe it'll just slaughter a bunch of innocent 1s and 0s for no benefit.

I started out playing piano in 4th grade, by standard pedagogy. (I will note that the piano program I participated in, did a FANTASTIC job of preparing beginner students for their first performance, and reassuring us that if something went wrong it was not a big deal - I trace my lack of stage fright to the very supportive approach they used.)

Then beginning band in 5th grade, again by standard pedagogy. I picked flute - the choices were limited, I didn't know what some of the instruments were. After about a year my parents engaged a private teacher and I studied with private teachers, the standard classical repertoire, through high school.

When I was in high school I wanted to play rock and roll and I wanted to join the school jazz band, so I started learning saxophone. Now I'd already been studying flute for about 6 years, so I ported over a lot of the same practice methods to sax; but I never took but one lesson on saxophone. I also expected that I should be able to play saxophone at the same level as flute almost immediately (and I was a pretty good flute player). So, I was able to wiggle the keys easily, but embouchure matters eluded me for quite a while. I went off to college, almost completely gave up playing flute, totally gave up playng piano, but played a TON on saxophone - multiple bands both university based and private. A keyboard player and I founded a really nice little prog-rock band that had pretty considerable success, along with a variety of pickup gigs that kept me pretty busy. Still NO formal training on saxophone. But I was doing a lot of reading and self=study. This is when I also started trying to put a theoretical basis behind improvisation and especially in jazz playing.

Then when I got out of college I joined a couple bands - a rock and roll cover band that had pretty good success, and a rehearsal big band that led to a lengthy stint in a couple higher-end society bands and some GB work as well.

It was when I picked up a baritone right out of college, for rock and jazz playing both, that I realized I needed to really come to grips with the mechanics of playing this thing. I had an interval exercise from my days of formal flute teaching (so, not a self-taught thing) and I had read a bunch about saxophone embouchure and the right way to train it (so, definitely a self-taught thing, but with input from books and articles). That period there, when I was going out to the city park several nights a week and practicing long tones and interval exercises, was when I got my embouchure properly straightened out, quit biting on the reed for once and for all, really internalized proper airstream support, and developed a personal tone concept. I also did a LOT of work cleaning up fingering and basic technique. Was this self-taught, or not? I didn't invent any of this stuff myself, I read it, or I carried it over from formal one-on-one lessons on other instruments.

So, self taught on saxophone, or not? I only ever had one sit-down one-on-one saxophone lesson. But, I could say I was taught by Larry Teal, because I read his book's section on embouchure and then went out and worked like hell to internalize it. I could say I was taught by Larry Slezak, because hearing him warming up and listening to him construct solos on the spot gave me my first up close exposure to the real power and skill of a true professional saxophonist at the highest level. I could say I was taught by Hamiet Bluiett and Harry Carney, because constantly listening to their recorded sounds gave me the building blocks for my own tonal concept on baritone - and I could say I was taught by Arthur Blythe and Sonny Criss on alto, the same way.
 
I think I've told this story before but...

I was a trumpet player in high school until my horn got stolen during second year. I had a friend who played bari and he showed me how to play a chromatic scale. I played a few scales for the band director to prove I could do it and switched to bari the next week. Self taught since then.
 
I consider myself to be self-taught - if teaching comes from personal lessons. Beyond that tho’, I’m a deep listener and reader, and have gained insight and wisdom from most everyone that I’ve played with. Somehow I never learned to breathe wrong. I started singing at an early age and noticed what it takes to develop a big sound.

How could anyone on the internet claim to be completely self-taught unless they refuse to learn from others?
 
I think there is a spectrum of "self taught". My middle school director, a clarinet player, taught the whole band the rudiments of playing - fingerings, embouchure, reading, rhythm, and overall musicality. Of course playing in a band everyday for 6 years is a huge learning experience.

But school didn't teach me a jazz sax embouchure, techniques, chords, progressions, form, theory, improvisation, swing, funk, rock, effects, altissimo, playing by ear, etc. All of that I learned on my own from books and records before the internet existed.

So, I'm not self taught in the rudiments, but am entirely self taught on everything else, including all my doubles (flute, clarinet, trumpet, trombone, tuba). I did ask other players various questions about those instruments, so does that count as lessons?

I think instruction in at least the rudiments is extremely important. Most entirely self taught sax players I hear kind of get stuck at middle school level and never really master the instrument or develop a professional sound. That's not to say they don't play well enough for their own enjoyment. But playing in certain groups or reading bands isn't an option for them, which is perfectly fine for many players.
 
Some people might be able to learn totally by themselves, but I think to really develop, considered guidance is needed at some stage. As @lydian said at least the rudiments.

A teacher can give advice about embouchure, breath control and articulation but it is down to the pupil to try, practise, experiment and find what works and how. It took me a while to stop 'huffing' notes and playing with a single breath controlled by articulation. If my teacher hadn't pointed it out (regularly!) and I hadn't followed his advice and learnt to breathe properly, I'd probably still be doing it as I knew no better.

Fundamentally, aren't we all 'self-taught' to a certain extent? Teachers, books, online courses, peers et al can point the way, advise, suggest, monitor and get us going but ultimately the ability to play comes from continual practise and learning from our mistakes.
 
I’m 99% self taught. I’ve had 4 lessons in the whole 15+ years of my saxophone journey. I bought a used Bundy alto and the 4 ‘ The Complete saxophone player’ by Raphael Ravenscroft which I used to learn everything about embouchure to chords. The only thing that completely evades me to this day is impro. From the Bundy I went through a number of altos mist notably a Selmer Prelude and an LA Sax bought at Michael White’s when I lived in Ealing, London. I wanted to play tunes right away so I learnt to read music and started blowing away, my very first was ‘Strangers in the night’. Everything was played legato because I was in a hurry and skipped the tonguing. Somewhere along the way I got from the neighbours yelling ‘Shut the **** up!’ to a friend asking me to play Sade at her wedding. I could play but my technique, breathing, tone were all below average. The internet proved to be a life saver again because it did help me overcome my ignorance on many aspects of saxophone playing. I really needed someone who could listen to my playing and offer constructive advice rather than the missus trying to discreetly escape from the noise or telling me I do not in any way sound like the pro player we’d seen at the jazz club the previous night. I persevered. I befriended a pro who sat with me over a weekend to help me improve and a couple of lessons when I felt I was slipping from a teacher in North London. Problem I have is I’m always on the move, travelling on business or spending months away doing the things I love best. It’s not the best lifestyle to learn the sax properly or make friends in a band or play regularly with a choir……I know I have improved because now when I play with others I just blend in rather than honk very quickly to a stop and an apology. I have also more professional saxes now in Martins and Henri Selmers that are more difficult to play but I do like a challenge. If I had any advice to give to a autodidactic player it would be: learn from a recognised book, DO NOT SKIP TO TUNES BUT PROGRESS TO THEM, because a lot of bad habits can be avoided early on and good habits learnt from good foundations. Choose a good sax and a mpc/reed that gives you a pleasant sound and build from there, do not buy a lot of gear or succumb to GAS because it delays the improvements in tone, technique and airflow. Stick to one setup and PRACTICE EVERYDAY. Listen to the masters and read about their journey. Do not try to copy someone else’s setup or journey, the sax is a very personal thing, your sound, your setup, your failures and your wins. Don’t rush to be good, the road to playing well is long and arduous and you will never be 100% happy with your sound……ever. But most of all ENJOY THE TRIP because those moments when you play, nothing else matters.
 
OK so DEFINING "self-taught" would be, imho - you didn't take private lessons, or public education perhaps IF such lessons were at least 2x/month....

So, to me, buying books and/or backing recordings or other teaching materials which do not allow back-forth conversation between two people....IS "self taught". And those materials are "self-learning aids"

Others' parameters may vary...

I, like a few other respondents, therefore, AM "self-taught" ON SAX. But had had private lessons on two other instruments, three if you count voice, for pretty good stretches (2-3 years) prior to picking up a sax.

So...never had a sax-teacher lesson, did have instrumental lessons however.
 
JayeNM said:
Have you had those serviced recently ? A "pro" horn should certainly be no more difficult to play than any other sort of model, unless it has a problem....
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The Selmer was serviced last September, no problems with that. My hands are small and the ergos of both Selmer and Martin make it more difficult for me. Not by much but I’m still struggling from low Bb to low C# ….. and palm keys are iffy on the Martins alto and the LH pad on the tenor. I need to adapt because I love the sound I get from them.
 
lydian said:
Of course playing in a band everyday for 6 years is a huge learning experience.
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For me this is 'on the job' training and the way I like to learn.

On the advice of my teacher I joined a local amateur band after about six months. It has been a great learning experience and I have made far quicker progress than just having regular lessons with a teacher. That is not a criticism of my teacher; he has recognised my enthusiasm and dedication so we now mostly practise the standards I play in the band, improvising and general musicality.

Any theory I have learnt has been via books, Taming The Saxophone articles and manuals, plus some online resources (Dr Wally Wallace, Dave Pollack, Jamie Anderson).

JayeNM said:
OK so DEFINING "self-taught" would be, imho - you didn't take private lessons, or public education perhaps IF such lessons were at least 2x/month....

So, to me, buying books and/or backing recordings or other teaching materials which do not allow back-forth conversation between two people....IS "self taught". And those materials are "self-learning aids"
Read more…

In that case, my path, like many I think, is a mix of formal tuition - not self-taught, and practical experience and self guided study - self taught.
 
Hmm..ok for me there are 2 different concepts going on..Excuse me if I am wrong, but again for me it relates to the dots. The ability to play from, read, and understand music in it's totallity, underpins the playing of any instrument. Of course practice, guidance, practice, experience, practice ( I know) are all major factors.

@BUMNOTE stated in my previous thread that I ask questions that cause confusion in how they are asked, ( very rough translation). This is because I don't understand the language ( discourse) of music. I think that is what @thomsax was referring to. Teachers have winced when I have turned up with my written out sheet and backing track, "oooh we can't teach that way we don't understand it" " do you not read music?" For me this is the issue, BTW I always take the sheet music I have transposed from; I'm not mean.

For clarity I can read the dots, well notes, I understand basic key sigs, I know enough to transpose a sheet into my docs. Thanks to @sax panther who gave me the instrumental part for "I'm a believer". It took 2 mins to get the notes in order. Seeing the rhythm now, that didn't happen I could see the time sig, could see the crotchets, could, see the quavers, quaver rests, but could i see how it played and sounded no..I am at a stage where words are my notes and rhythm; the track is my tempo.

As usual I digress. For me the initial post is missing something. That is " did you understand the language of music before learning the sax?" I genuinely believe that no one here is judged on their saxual ability..hmm leave it..However as in law discourse is used as a symbol of learnedness, my own term please replace with learning or knowledge. It is the ability to communicate in the discourse that gives a sence of belonging or unity.

Whoops long post sorry if I have strayed..erm self taught, some teachers, some courses, and massive help from here..Thanks all Eddie
 
I have had exactly two lessons on saxophone, and one was really just about improvising. However I studied clarinet with private teachers and in school quite seriously for many years. So I am not “self-taught”, at least when it comes to reading instrumental music.

Improvising, that’s a whole different ball game. The only way to learn that is by teaching yourself. Listening, transcribing, playing with other people (“Oh, THAT’S how you do that”), practicing, rinse and repeat.

I want to address a couple of assumptions that have cropped up in this thread. First, the idea that “reading the dots” is important. I won’t say that being able to read well hasn’t helped me professionally, but has it helped me be a better musician? I have to say, after 65 years of playing saxophone (68 on clarinet), the answer is “no”. Understanding style and common practice, which can only be done by listening and experience, is critical to a good performance. I know many musicians who cannot read at all, and many others that only read certain things (chord symbols, or Nashville notation, for example), yet are successful professionals and play their respective behinds off.

Second, the idea that we all really teach ourselves. I agree strongly with this. Whatever you do to internalize and retain musical concepts, that is teaching yourself. When you play music, you have to be aware of so many things at once - fingerings, the stuff you need to do to produce sound, where you are in the music, what notes are in this chord, remembering to take a deep breath for this next passage, etc. etc. etc. - if you don’t work on it, and get it down, you won’t have a good performance. That’s what makes music so hard. Everyone has to form their own idea of how to integrate all this information at once. That’s being self-taught for sure.

Finally, most musicians are happy to share their ideas and experience. I have had so many “aha!” moments in my life just by talking about things with other players. I just spent a weekend with an old friend and colleague, also in his late 70’s, who told me he figured out a new way to think about chord progressions that helped him be a better soloist. It was specific to his instrument (guitar), but it’s a cool way to think about things, and I will try to apply it to my saxophone playing. Is this being self-taught? No, it’s just being curious and willing to look for new facets to music. We are all teaching ourselves and each other all the time.
 
I suppose I'm not self taught.

I had a weekly 15minute lesson at school, it taught me the very basics. I could in a fashion read music, and I could in a way play a saxophone.

After moving house a few years ago, I started playing again, I was surprised I could remember what I could and started lessons, first weekly then fortnightly.

What my teacher does is keeps challenging me.

I could play a piece, and you'd know the tune, but he would push for it to better. Whether rhythm, or timing.

His way of teaching rhythm & timing is different to anything I've seen online, but works me. He's explained his logic behind it, I see other players doing exactly why he does it differently.

I can get a decent sound out most of my horns too, there's still work to be done in places. But my teacher will stop me and give pointers on how to improve my sound. Overtones, voicing, embochure. I had an annoyance on my tenor that we sorted out.

Delving into improvising, I've an idea of the theory, but making is musical is a different matter. He's very much go away and play around, much like a child playing with a toy. He's given me some building blocks, go see what I can make. Rather than learning licks, and I get some guidance in each lesson.

Most importantly I've someone who doesn't ever let me say that'll do, and continually pushes for me to improve.

I play with the local orchestra, and that's helped no end, especially since playing the Bari.

I've played with self taught players, not saying all but some would learn a piece by playing along to musescore, all fine and dandy until the conductor played it faster. There's self taught players who have much better rhythm and timing that I have, from playing others instruments, but who's sound isn't as strong.

I think if I didn't have lessons I'd have probably get more frustrated, and jacked it in years ago. Even with lessons, there's periods where it feels like nothing seems to improve.
 
Targa said:
I’m self taught.
When I went to look at buying a sax in Curly woodwind they showed me how to play B, A, G and that was the only ‘lesson’ I had.
I bought the Complete Saxophone Player and learned from that and then whatever tips I have picked up on the cafe.
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Bob at Curly is ace, he's my go to... Hopefully he'll be showing me how to play my Bari in Tune when I go pick it up of him 😂
 
Told to stop lessons (which I detested) a year into sax playing in 1977... "A waste of your Mum's money"

Often think I could probably do with a teacher to help improve my many inconsistencies, but never do anything about it

Somehow, and this I consider a major plus now that we are told it is a thing; I've not learned not to breathe right*

*But still struggle to play and vape at the same time
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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