Tech/maintenance Yamaha powder paper - any good?

[PigSquealer]

They do stick

I have a 82z from new with ridiculously sticky pads that after a year are just about becoming less sticky... That's all pads, with the exception of octave pips... So that's the closed cups G# and low C# plus all the side/palm keys and the low Eb that all prised open with a snap, and the open cup B, A and G keys becoming stickier whilst playing

I found swabbing with water or with naptha helped for a short while, but all keys reverted to sticking as I was playing for a half hour or so. I applied acetone to no effect. I pulled paper, bank notes and solvent lubricated fabric between pad and tone hole multiple times

As a last resort (before contemplating what should be the completely unnecessary expense of a repad) I swabbed with a fiendish multi-solvent used to remove sticky labels (30% aliphatic hydrocarbons to dissolve, plus ionic surfactants to lift residue)

The label solvent was the most effective; the pads still stuck, though less quickly

A year on, after multiple rounds of swabbing with water/lighter fuel/label solvent, the pads are starting to lose their stickiness

To further point the finger at a Yamaha pad issue I had purchased another new 80z, before my current one, and returned it to the shop because of the exact same extreme pad stickiness, which I rated as the sort of defect that should prompt the shop to return the horn to Japan

The pads have not suffered from being subject to my treatments. Neither have they ever had any visible indication of a defect, blemish or unusual coating that would help explain the ludicrous degree of stickiness

Interesting feedback. Thank you.
It’s my understanding that Yamaha started using Pisoni pads exclusively just after Covid. The same pads that Selmer uses. I haven’t put time into documentation of this. Still I’m now wondering if any Selmer customers have this same issue ?
Lastly, have you tried the factory Yamaha pad papers ? I’ve never known Yamaha to offer anything that didn’t work on their own products. My experience using pad paper was not on Yamaha products. So, hum 🤔. This product is included in their care & cleaning kit.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/accessories/carekits/yac_sax-mkit/index.html#product-tabs

 

[cappers]

They do stick

I have a 82z from new with ridiculously sticky pads that after a year are just about becoming less sticky...

My YTS-32 tends to stick more than the YTS-25. But it has new pads whereas the '25 has old pads and rarely stick.
Less of a problem now with regular pad and tonehole cleaning using naphtha and pad wipers but irritating when it happens.

 

[Jimmymack]

Yes this works. Still each of us live & play in different environments. So maintenance and care are a variable. Sometimes cleaning with soap & water is good. The you get one that this technique trashes the pad. But then again naphtha can do the same on an old pad. Gently test for best results is the way to go. Including trying Pledge.

Jack Tyler of BSS recommends lemon pledge and I've given it a quick go a few times and it seems to do a reasonable job even though I didn't have the lemon variety. He also recommends powder paper for sticky pads but I want to take muck off not put more on and sticky pads aren't my problem, I just want to get the gunk off. In case I need it I have a dollar bill for sticky pads and haven't found anything better.

 

[turf3]

The thing is, "naphtha" is a marketing term, not a technical or chemical one. It's basically "very light petroleum distillates", meaning a mixture of (probably mostly) saturated hydrocarbons (pentane and above), with "other stuff" as well. So the question "does XYZ contain naphtha" is kind of meaningless. Down at the refinery they're taking the first stuff that boils off, packaging it in a number of different ways, some of which is called "naphtha", some "charcoal lighter fluid", some "cigarette lighter fluid". I don't know to what extent "Coleman fuel" also called "white gas" is further refined. I'm pretty sure that motor vehicle gasoline IS refined further, and then a whole bunch of various additives are added to it.

So whichever of all these various very light petroleum distillate products you choose to use, you'll probably get about the same results.

I would recommend strongly against using any kind of organic oils such as lemon oil ("Pledge"). It WILL polymerize with exposure to oxygen, and it WILL get sticky making your sticky pads even worse.

 

[skeller047]

Regarding Naptha, last year on a trip to Nevada, got a gallon container marked “Naptha” at a Home Depot. (Or was it Lowes?). For those who live in California, a trip to the desert may be worthwhile. I doubt I will use the entire gallon in what is left of my lifetime. I can’t remember how much it was, probably around $30…

…
I would recommend strongly against using any kind of organic oils such as lemon oil ("Pledge"). It WILL polymerize with exposure to oxygen, and it WILL get sticky making your sticky pads even worse.

The trick to using Pledge, (or Old English Lemon Oil) on pads is to NOT leave a coating on the pad. Spray Pledge into a small cup (Lemon Oil, just pour a little in). Dip a cotton bud in, squeeze it a little so it’s damp rather than wet, wipe the pad seat to clean it, then wipe again immediately with a dry cotton bud. Maybe use a second dry cotton bud. End of sticking pad. Pads treated this way will not stick for many months.

I don’t know if the miniscule amount of residue polymerizes or not, but I have been using this method for many years and the pads are still good and do not stick. Treating the G#, low Eb, low C# and various side keys in this way has had no ill effects. Once or twice a year is all that is required. Cleaning occasionally with naptha will remove any dirt that manages to find its way there. At the first sign of sticking, clean with naptha and repeat the Pledge/Lemon Oil treatment.

 

[JayeNM]

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED PRODUCT, YAMAHA POWDER PAPER.

be careful because they also have another paper called 'cleaning paper' or something like that. Which does, well, almost nothing that I can see.

But the powder paper is great.

No...it does NOT leave a residue which 'over time' creates anything bad.

Yeah, you could put a naptha based lighter fuel bottle in your case and carry it around...but why ? Naptha is cool on a disassembled horn, certainly.

Yeah in a pinch, you could swipe a banknote between pad and hole edge... but honestly, other than a desperate troubleshoot...it doesn't work half as well.

The papers aren't expensive, you can reuse a sheet many times, it alleviates sticking in a single swipe, and it takes up no space in the case

 

[JayeNM]

https://asia-oceania.yamaha.com/en/musical-instruments/brass-woodwinds/products/accessories/powder-paper/

Can it be used for simple, preventative maintenance?

Or only use when necessary.

Or no, it's not good, don't use?

Oh...it isn't a preventative maintenance product, really.

It is a 'have it on-hand when you run into sticky pads' product.

 

[Targa]

Yeah, you could put a naptha based lighter fuel bottle in your case and carry it around...but why ?

Not seen Withnail and I?

 

[thomsax]

Yes this works. Still each of us live & play in different environments. So maintenance and care are a variable. Sometimes cleaning with soap & water is good. The you get one that this technique trashes the pad. But then again naphtha can do the same on an old pad. Gently test for best results is the way to go. Including trying Pledge.

For many years ago I was recommended to go to a dry cleaner shop and ask the owner to buy some dry cleaning stuff that was used for dry cleaning skin and leather. The skin leather became fragile after using dry cleaning stuff !!! He recommended baby soap solved in lukewarm water. Cleaning and "re-fatting"/moisturizes.

When I started to buy old saxes I often read that the pads were "workable". "Workable" to me is ......

 

[jonf]

Even in lighter fluid naphtha seems to be vanishingly rare. I read that Zippo and Ronsonol no longer contain it. As far as I can ascertain Swan seems to be the only major supplier that does. I believe you can buy it in litre size containers for your barbecue (naphtha not Swan fluid) but that seems to be overkill for my needs.

Tesco sells Swan lighter fluid, as do various eBay sellers. You can get it on Amazon UK, but as a 12-pack. My guess is the eBay sellers buy the multi-packs sold on Amazon, split them and sell singly to make a profit.

 

[PigSquealer]

Honestly any sticking issue I approach with gentle cleaning first. Naphtha is generally my first weapon of choice. This after some close inspection of the condition(s) of needs, age or appearance of leather and condition of tone hole rim. A good percentage of pads don’t stain using naphtha. Brief staining usually disappears after the product evaporates. I hesitated to mention Pledge or Old English due to the staining issue. Products like Saddle Soap or Neatsfoot oil can destroy pad leather. The leather is very thin (.014) and does not tolerate the absorption of these products.
@skeller047 Emilio Lyons used Old English exclusively and with a very gentle light application. This being on his own pad work. Pads that were painted/ coated. There’s YouTube videos of him doing Old English treatment on coated pads.
I’ve serviced units he built. The treatment was bulletproof twenty years later on. I could literally submerge a full key assembly in soapy water to clean them with no ill effects. Didn’t have to refloat / reseal a single pad.
Funny thing. I remember every detail of this horn. Can’t remember the customers name. Some collector or Terrance Martin? It’s all a big blurr. Lol, service the thing and out the door it goes.

 

[JayeNM]

Jack Tyler of BSS recommends lemon pledge and I've given it a quick go a few times and it seems to do a reasonable job even though I didn't have the lemon variety. He also recommends powder paper for sticky pads but I want to take muck off not put more on and sticky pads aren't my problem, I just want to get the gunk off. In case I need it I have a dollar bill for sticky pads and haven't found anything better.

Thing here is, you say no to powder paper because you don't wanna put muck ON. Then report you use Pledge.
Pledge leaves residue...its the residue that alleviates the sticking.
Powder paper leaves residue...it's the residue which prevents the sticking, as well.

Both therefore, are 'muck on', really.

 

[JayeNM]

interesting btw if Rossinol no longer contains Naptha.

Because it still in my experience works as well as it did ten or fifteen years ago.

On the other hand, the hardware store replacements for Naptha...which many a time even read 'replaces naptha'....on the label....for the most part have never done the job, nor had the attributes we need in the sax instance...as the original Naptha.

So whatever Rossinol replaced it with, it is better than most replacements...

 

[turf3]

As I've noted above, "naphtha" doesn't actually have a technical meaning; it's "light fractions of petroleum distillates".

• "Light naphtha is the fraction boiling between 30 and 90 °C (86 and 194 °F) and consists of molecules with 5–6 carbon atoms.
• Heavy naphtha boils between 90 and 200 °C (194 and 392 °F) and consists of molecules with 6–12 carbon atoms."

So saying "doesn't contain naphtha anymore" means what? All petroleum distillates removed? Certainly one could convert a solvent, or fuel, to all-alcohols, or add terpenes, or acetone, but then it'd behave dramatically differently.

Saying "this solvent [or fuel] doesn't have Naphtha in it" is kind of like saying "we've removed dairy from this cheese".

 

[turf3]

Personally I think any time you put any kind of oil on pads, you are risking it polymerizing with exposure to oxygen (this is what oils DO) and getting sticky.

Petroleum based oils are far less prone to this, especially the light fractions described as "naphtha" or "cigarette lighter fluid" or "Stoddard Solvent" or "mineral spirits" or "charcoal lighter fluid".

Vegetable oils, such as lemon (Pledge, Olde English Pad Sticky), olive, etc., and animal (neats foot, mink, various forms of grease) are highly prone to polymerizing and making pads sticky.

I've had enough experience with "Famous Tech" recommended things, that did NOT conform to my own experience and judgement, bollixing things up, that I now take all "Famous Tech" recommendations with a block of salt. My Conn tenor with its pads that are still sticky 25 years after I disregarded my own judgement and did the Olde English Pad Sticky treatment on recommendation of "Famous Tech", is Exhibit A. I knew darn well that non-petroleum oils are highly prone to polymerizing and getting sticky (I have used linseed oil in furniture work and painting for decades) but I told my own judgement to shut up so I could get on with "Famous Tech's" recommendation on how to make my pads sticky.

I have found that charcoal lighter fluid/cigarette lighter fluid/"naphtha" works pretty well at removing the sticky verdigris/pad leather schmutz from pads and not turning sticky later. Not perfect, but better than most anything else I've tried.