Saxophones Why is...? Modern left hand table key design

[turf3]

It may have just read "Collegiate" without the Holton. Have these been confirmed not to be made by Holton, though ? This was a long time ago, like 15 years, that I worked on that horn. I don't think I have pics any longer. But that'd be interesting...

Mine does say "Holton Collegiate".

I can't remember exactly how I learned these weren't made by Holton (and of course, Holton and Couturier may well have had some kind of common ownership). But I've seen a few pictures labeled "Lyon and Healy" with that characteristic G# touch, and mention of Couturier. Compared to the two Holton sopranos I've owned with the "Frank Holton" name on, there are some details that appear the same as Holton and some that appear different. That's not very conclusive, not to someone with my limited amount of exposure to these things.

You probably already know this, but despite a very French-sounding name it appears Couturier was a US company, very small, and almost nothing is known about them, and it appears that they pretty much only made stuff under other people's names.

It's really really hard for most of us to assign manufacturer to stencil sopranos from the 20s and 30s as they all look pretty much alike. I think it'd be really difficult for anyone who isn't a tech with a long history of dealing with sopranos and a bank of detailed mechanism photos to refer back to.

 

[Woodpad]

Buescher Truetones, the last iteration before they became Aristcrats, had roller G# touches. They are excellent.

I knew several guys in the 60’s and ‘70’s who deliberately bent (or broke off) the G# tabs on their horns, because they claimed the stability outweighed the convenience of being able to do C# or E major arpeggios without a lot of pinky dancing. To say nothing of leaps from C#, B or Bb to Ab/G#…

Looks like the G# coupling was a cheap change and not the best improvement at that time,

 

[vries1]

… There are no patents on this gismo as far as I know.

See http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Couesnon/patents/787998-1935.pdf

 

[Vlad]

Have to say I hate the Selmer type 'pinky table' Having short stubby fingers the Bb is pretty much unusable for me. Much prefer the old American style where the low Bb is just next to the B, all in a row type arrangement.

 

[turf3]

Beaugnier offered this as well, on some of the model 35 horns (Vito and Noblet). I guess it’s a quick and easy way to deal with the mis-regulation of the lower stack key -> G# key, say if a cork drops off? Don’t see much else use for it.

I knew several guys in the 60’s and ‘70’s who deliberately bent (or broke off) the G# tabs on their horns, because they claimed the stability outweighed the convenience of being able to do C# or E major arpeggios without a lot of pinky dancing. To say nothing of leaps from C#, B or Bb to Ab/G#…

"Stability"?

 

[turf3]

Looks like the G# coupling was a cheap change and not the best improvement at that time,

I don't know about that value judgement. I have a Martin Comm 1 with the link from teh factory, a Conn alto and tenor with the link from the factory, and a Conn baritone with the link added, and I think it's a big improvement. Especially on baritone where one spends a lot of time down in the bell keys.

 

[skeller047]

"Stability"?

Yeah. If your cork regulation is old, and/or your keywork is a little loose, not having to tweak the G# hold down bar helped both the bell key notes, and the lower stack. I don’t know many guys who use 1+1 Bb either, so often that regulation is also left loose. Plus, being able to open G# when holding down keys in the right hand made some altissimo notes and multiphonics easier.

You know saxophonists are crazy, right? booga-booga…

 

[Woodpad]

I don't know about that value judgement. I have a Martin Comm 1 with the link from teh factory, a Conn alto and tenor with the link from the factory, and a Conn baritone with the link added, and I think it's a big improvement. Especially on baritone where one spends a lot of time down in the bell keys.

The problem is to move the largest keys with the smallest fingers and than ad the C# - G# mechanism to increase the required force. If you move the low C# key to the right hand pinky, as on the flute, it is easier to get a good leverage. Including a right hand G# thrill key solves the problem for G# to low B and Bb.

 

[Ivan]

Having short stubby fingers the Bb is pretty much unusable for me.

Might I suggest a Holly Hunteresque extention?

 

[Colin the Bear]

I need a saxophone with a "thrill" key. 🗝️™️🤔

 

[turf3]

Yeah. If your cork regulation is old, and/or your keywork is a little loose, not having to tweak the G# hold down bar helped both the bell key notes, and the lower stack. I don’t know many guys who use 1+1 Bb either, so often that regulation is also left loose. Plus, being able to open G# when holding down keys in the right hand made some altissimo notes and multiphonics easier.

You know saxophonists are crazy, right? booga-booga…

Yeah, the old "lazy technician deciding what the players wants" phenomenon.

I hadn't heard about disabling the G# hold down - which is DIFFERENT than disabling the G#/C#/B linkage. Breaking off the linkage tabs will NOT allow you to open the G# pad with RH fingers down, it just makes it orders of magnitude more difficult to play those certain arpeggios, especially on the Mark 6 with the dreaded tilt-and-fall-away low Bb. Certainly one can back off the G# hold down screw to create an intentional small leak, thus requiring perfect synchronization. This is acceptable on flutes, after all.

I did know about the mis-regulation of the 1 and 1 fingering. That was a North Texas thing, to claim that the 1 and 1 fingering shouldn't be used, so you can misregulate it in order to supposedly make altissimo G easier. For years, I had to fix every horn that came back to me from the shop, to put the 1 and 1 fingering back in operation.

That was probably the same group of techs who claimed the fork Eb pad was "the bastard key" and would take off and throw away the parts, file the tone hole down, and solder a penny over it.

One should not underestimate just how low the standard of work was for many techs in the 1970s.

 

[PigSquealer]

Mine does say "Holton Collegiate".

I can't remember exactly how I learned these weren't made by Holton (and of course, Holton and Couturier may well have had some kind of common ownership). But I've seen a few pictures labeled "Lyon and Healy" with that characteristic G# touch, and mention of Couturier. Compared to the two Holton sopranos I've owned with the "Frank Holton" name on, there are some details that appear the same as Holton and some that appear different. That's not very conclusive, not to someone with my limited amount of exposure to these things.

You probably already know this, but despite a very French-sounding name it appears Couturier was a US company, very small, and almost nothing is known about them, and it appears that they pretty much only made stuff under other people's names.

The short answer.
E.A. Couturier was born in New York 1869. A cornet player. Leader of Gilmores Band. Worked with Holton and York designing/ R&D. Patented the continuous conical bore. 1917 Started company making brass then saxophones in 1922. Lyon & Healy, Gretsch and Couturier were 99% of engraved markings. Whaley & Royce was stamped add on below Couturier.
Couturier went Bk in late 1923. (He went blind and couldn’t run the company)
Lyon & Healy bought the company and largely continued with the same designs.
L & H sold the factory to Holton in March 1928.
Holton continued the factory (in LaPorta Indiana) producing the “Beaufort American ” and the first “Collegiate” products.

If your SOP has beveled tone holes and is engraved as Collegiate. That is one fine and very rare SOP. Sadly I have zero archive of SOP pictures or notes.

A bit of history on E.A. Couturier.

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