What Key Signature for Dorian Mode?

[Dr G]

I would respectfully disagree. Mr Pedantic just tapped me on the shoulder and said that while it's true you can take the notes of C major and create a scale or melody whose tonic is D, that is NOT historically how modes came about, hence it is not how they are derived.

Fair 'nough - poor choice of words on my behalf. Might I get away with saying "correlated"? As a musician, I just want the cues as to what notes to play, and would rather not see the pedantry that requires every darn B in a D Dorian piece "corrected" with an accidental.

I'm going to ask my wife about this - as musicologist specializing in renaissance and early music she may be able to shed a bit of light.

Yes, please. It would be interesting to know how long we've been doing it all wrong.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Fair 'nough - poor choice of words on my behalf. Might I get away with saying "correlated"? As a musician, I just want the cues as to what notes to play, and would rather not see the pedantry that requires every darn B in a D Dorian piece "corrected" with an accidental.

No I get it. There is a relationship and for most of us mortals it is often a good shortcut to knowing the notes.

The ideal is to approach modes as a tonality in their own right but not so easy once you get too far round the cycle.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The ideal is to approach modes as a tonality in their own right but not so easy once you get too far round the cycle.

Yes, hence the Bb sig of Dm being (sort of) unhelpful.

But as Turf said, no key sig and D here there and everywhere says to many that it’s a very different type of melody (starting on the 9th) over a different harmonic structure.

Interestingly, a musician that is a Baroque or Renaissance specialist might expect the above to be Dorian straight away, whereas the jazzers might well expect them to be 9ths over a C chord of some type.

Perhaps the best TV big is to write a directive at the start saying that the no #/b sig is for ease of reading a simple tune in D Dorian.

Having said that, in a minor mode, the raised 7th is written as an accidental as someone has already alluded to. Again, written music, whilst being an amazing invention, isn’t perfect in all situations.

 

[Woodpad]

Similarly, I have seen Arabic songs written in the key of G harmonic minor. the Arabic convention is actually to put in 2 flats and 1 sharp in the key signature in this instance which looks very strange to us! Western convention would be just the 2 flats and use accidentals as needed.

So pragmatic solutions become acceptable when you change nationality.

 

[Jimmymack]

I always thought that the Dorian mode was easy to understand, I’m pleased to see that it’s much more complicated. I wonder what Carlos Santana thinks about it,

 

[mizmar]

Similarly, I have seen Arabic songs written in the key of G harmonic minor. the Arabic convention is actually to put in 2 flats and 1 sharp in the key signature in this instance which looks very strange to us! Western convention would be just the 2 flats and use accidentals as needed.

I posted something about that a while ago, if folks want an example.

Between the Notes - quarter tones

Its funny that when I asked the guy at the music shop about quarter tones in saxophone, he got shocked and tried to explain to me that I was talking about quarters in a Beat .. which I wasnt :) Quarter Tone Fingering Chart for Saxohpone: First Octave First Octave - Quarter Tone Fingering...

cafesaxophone.com

Pedant mode: And not specifically (or just) Arab. Maqam is used across the middle East (up to, but not including Iran) and North Africa, with regional variations. I've come across material in different maqam but the same signature; you just have to know or work out what's the right form...

 

[Pete Thomas]

I always thought that the Dorian mode was easy to understand, I’m pleased to see that it’s much more complicated.

It's very easy if you just think about singing or playing tunes.

e.g What shall we do with the Drunken Sailor is dorian - but you need no theory to sing it or play the tune.

It only gets slightly more complex when writing it out for other people who may or may not be familiar with modal tunes.,

I wonder what Carlos Santana thinks about it,

Possibly neither he (nor Tito Puente) gave it a second thought about it.

But any of the arrangers would have . Oye Coma Va? It's just a groove of Am7 D7 (in the mode of A dorian). Its always has an F# and a tonality of Am. The EMI sheet music is in A minor with F# as an accidental rather than being in G because it isn't in G, it is in A minor (dorian)

 

[BigMartin]

e.g What shall we do with the Drunken Sailor is dorian - but you need no theory to sing it or play the tune.

Interesting. I'm hearing it as mixolydian starting on the 5th.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Interesting. I'm hearing it as mixolydian starting on the 5th.

But is a minor mode???

 

[skeller047]

I make a distinction between D Dorian and D minor. D minor implies harmony, but Dorian is a mode, implying modal melody and harmony. So I am in the blank signature (like C major) camp.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Dorian is a mode, implying modal melody and harmony

Yes but as you say, dorian modes can have harmony just as can what we call major and minor.

In a minor key of Cm the IV chord is Fm and and the V chord is G(7). Or the V would be Gm7 if it's an aeolian mode instead of what we normally call C minor with its associated harmonic minor scale.

In a dorian mode of Cm the IV chord is F (7) and the V chord is Gm.

Very often in dorian modal harmony a final cadence can be either Gm to Cm or Bb to Cm.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yw0bLHTOb0

 

[Pete Thomas]

So I am in the blank signature (like C major) camp.

When you say blank, do you mean just use no sharps or flats in key signature whatever the key is? Didn’t they do that with the Charlie Parker Omnibook?

 

[skeller047]

By blank, I meant no sharps, no flats. For D Dorian.. For C# Dorian, I want to see 5 sharps.

I said blank because it used 3 fewer words, and 11 (or 13) fewer characters (depending on whether you count ‘space’ as a character). Is that pedantic enough for everyone??? 😛

 

[nigeld]

Is that pedantic enough for everyone??? 😛

I rather doubt it. 😵

 

[Jimmymack]

It's very easy if you just think about singing or playing tunes.

e.g What shall we do with the Drunken Sailor is dorian - but you need no theory to sing it or play the tune.

It only gets slightly more complex when writing it out for other people who may or may not be familiar with modal tunes.,



Possibly neither he (nor Tito Puente) gave it a second thought about it.

But any of the arrangers would have . Oye Coma Va? It's just a groove of Am7 D7 (in the mode of A dorian). Its always has an F# and a tonality of Am. The EMI sheet music is in A minor with F# as an accidental rather than being in G because it isn't in G, it is in A minor (dorian)



View attachment 24383

Exactly.

 

[nigeld]

Thanks for all the information. I think we have demonstrated fairly convincingly that there is no generally accepted standard for writing the key signature of a piece in Dorian mode. So I shall do what I like. 😎

 

[Targa]

Thanks for all the information. I think we have demonstrated fairly convincingly that there is no generally accepted standard for writing the key signature of a piece in Dorian mode. So I shall do what I like. 😎

Or to put it another way Dorian is not black or white but Gray.

 

[mizmar]

Why not write "... In D Dorian" on the parts?

 

[BigMartin]

But is a minor mode???

Yes, I was transcribing it from memory and erroneously hearing major thirds, sorry.