Saxophones What do you do when you lost your place?

[Ghr9204]

Usually it’s just me, keys, drums, bass, guitar + a trumpet player. Haven’t played in a stage band setting in decades. Kind of miss it but not really.

Stage band has been a while for me, too. They are fun.

I’m glad that somebody gets along with Graftonites. I forgot exactly why but seem to vaguely remember Doc Kupka using one back in the day so it seemed worth a try. I’ve had one for clarinet and one for bari and didn’t care for them at all. 😀

This is more pointed in general and not to any specific person.

I've been a DYI'er (do it yourself'er) for a long time. I think that this is where someone who is taking lessons has a teacher who points out something, gives a particular model and facing to try out. Then works with that student to help him/her hone in a sound.

Also, I bought mine one-at-a-time, didn't go out buy a whole series like one does with harmonicas. I am talking about over a decade. (I am being a little facetious, but in harmonicas I mean a set in all the keys.)

This is where I found that B5 (medium chamber "one-click" less than widest tip - "7") worked the best for me on soprano and bari. The alto, I have a Selmer S90-190. Although it is tipped a little less wide than the B5 for it with a slightly different facing length, plays IMO amazingly about the same. It goes to show as @Pete Thomas mentioned in another thread, that there is more to it than simply measured dimensions.

I look at them as a way for a person to experiment to find out what mouthpiece formula works best for them to develop the sound they are looking for, without spending a whole lot. This is more for a musician who is becoming proficient, not a beginner.

And, I don't do a lot of mouthpiece swapping. I have one for outdoors and large room play, and another for smaller indoor venues. And, I stick with those mouthpieces for years instead of months once I find those I am happy with.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It does not take the same amount of work to produce a passable rock backing track from these samples.

Very true!

 

[skeller047]

The sample based kits I use for jazz or big band are these (apartf rom the ones I've sampled myself from drummers I've work with on sessions)

Yes I’m familiar with those. Just look at those wimpy splashy thin hi hat cymbals!!!! How you gonna get a good “chuck” outta those things? Compare to a set of nice thick Zildians from the 1950s…. I rest my case. LOL!!

(I am quite aware that I’m a bit crazy about this kind of thing…)

 

[Pete Effamy]

Listen to a record with Art Blakey or Max Roach playing - the hi hat is clearly audible all the time. Getting that sound from a standard sample-based kit takes extra effort.

Like you, I’ve had a lot of experience playing behind major touring acts. The drum kits used by drummers for most pop singers are quite different from the kits used by jazz drummers. But it is these pop-based kits which get recorded for sample libraries. Which makes it difficult to get the right sound when producing a jazz backing track. I agree it can be done, but it takes work. It does not take the same amount of work to produce a passable rock backing track from these samples.

The point of this was to explain why, in a computer generated backing track, it’s easy to lose track of time in a jazz song. As opposed to a rock or pop tune with a strong backbeat.

When creating a jazz swing time drum backing track in my computer, I will often “play in” 8 or so bars of standard rhythms, and duplicate that through the whole tune. I can then edit in the fills and bombs as needed. But I have noticed that no matter which kit I use, from multiple sample libraries, that the hi hat foot sound has to be set at highest velocity to sound correct. Also, to get the correct sound from the cymbals, velocity has to be in the 30-50 range. Similar ranges for snare, kick and toms.

I have yet to meet a drummer whose left foot was 3 times as strong as the right, and I know a lot of drummers. But drummers who play a lot of small group jazz aren’t the ones being recorded for sample libraries. So I do the best I can.

The minute you want anything NOT standard rock - like jazz, country etc - you have a lot of programming on your hands. Worst case scenario is sample velocity ranges that are too quiet / wrong timbre at say, 79, and 80 is a crash bang wallop.

Hats are a real problem, especially pedal hats sounds.

I have Wendell - Roger Nichols (Steely Dan) $250k drum machine invention that was used on Gaucho and The Nightfly. His daughter sells all 30MB or so (yes mega bytes) of it for about $25 or something. It has some great samples that work brilliantly in busier mixes, as you’d expect.

I also have Native Instruments drummer libraries and Superior Drummer 3.

 

[skeller047]

The minute you want anything NOT standard rock - like jazz, country etc - you have a lot of programming on your hands. Worst case scenario is sample velocity ranges that are too quiet / wrong timbre at say, 79, and 80 is a crash bang wallop.

Hats are a real problem, especially pedal hats sounds.

I have Wendell - Roger Nichols (Steely Dan) $250k drum machine invention that was used on Gaucho and The Nightfly. His daughter sells all 30MB or so (yes mega bytes) of it for about $25 or something. It has some great samples that work brilliantly in busier mixes, as you’d expect.

I also have Native Instruments drummer libraries and Superior Drummer 3.

Agreed. I have some of the older kits from NI, I bought one of the Ultimate bundles several years ago (haven’t upgraded, except for Kontakt) I also have EZ Drummer, but I actually like some of the sounds in the various Drummer kits that come with Logic.

I have a friend who works with Orange Tree Samples, I should ask him what he uses. Probably out of my price range…

 

[Pete Thomas]

but I actually like some of the sounds in the various Drummer kits that come with Logic.

If you use Logic I’ll send you some of my custom made samples from drummers I’ve hired on sessions.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If you use Logic I’ll send you some of my custom made samples from drummers I’ve hired on sessions.

I use it! 😍

 

[Pete Effamy]

…or you struggle with a ping note on a snare, or the sound of too much room. Or a delayed sample on a bass and have to drag forward

 

[Pete Thomas]

I use it! 😍

What the ambient Gretsch?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Actually, I’ve really struggled with nice toms - as you say, one’s that don’t sound clouted!

 

[Pete Effamy]

What the ambient Gretsch?

Logic Pro

 

[lig]

Stage band has been a while for me, too. They are fun.

This is more pointed in general and not to any specific person.

I've been a DYI'er (do it yourself'er) for a long time. I think that this is where someone who is taking lessons has a teacher who points out something, gives a particular model and facing to try out. Then works with that student to help him/her hone in a sound.

Also, I bought mine one-at-a-time, didn't go out buy a whole series like one does with harmonicas. I am talking about over a decade. (I am being a little facetious, but in harmonicas I mean a set in all the keys.)

This is where I found that B5 (medium chamber "one-click" less than widest tip - "7") worked the best for me on soprano and bari. The alto, I have a Selmer S90-190. Although it is tipped a little less wide than the B5 for it with a slightly different facing length, plays IMO amazingly about the same. It goes to show as @Pete Thomas mentioned in another thread, that there is more to it than simply measured dimensions.

I look at them as a way for a person to experiment to find out what mouthpiece formula works best for them to develop the sound they are looking for, without spending a whole lot. This is more for a musician who is becoming proficient, not a beginner.

And, I don't do a lot of mouthpiece swapping. I have one for outdoors and large room play, and another for smaller indoor venues. And, I stick with those mouthpieces for years instead of months once I find those I am happy with.

I’m a total gear slut and happy to try different setups but on alto it’s really been two pieces that have been the mainstays over the past 20+ years. Guardala Studio and a metal Yani refaced by John Yokam.

Just got a very promising piece a few days ago - 0.90 10mFan Showboat in rhodium. Early days but so far so good.

My first instructor was a total Bird freak and I got a white Tonalin from him back in the day, Sounded / played well despite a cracked shank.

I was more into Sanborn and moved on from that piece since then but would probably enjoy it today.

Have ruined a few pieces with files, resin baffles and sandpaper since then 😀 and now happily leave that work to the experts.

 

[skeller047]

If you use Logic I’ll send you some of my custom made samples from drummers I’ve hired on sessions.

Oh I’d love that! I do use Logic, for all kinds of things…. Thanks Pete ❤️🎶🎷

 

[Targa]

Oh I’d love that! I do use Logic, for all kinds of things…. Thanks Pete ❤️🎶🎷

Using logic is just being Spocky.

 

[Ghr9204]

The minute you want anything NOT standard rock - like jazz, country etc - you have a lot of programming on your hands. Worst case scenario is sample velocity ranges that are too quiet / wrong timbre at say, 79, and 80 is a crash bang wallop.

I remember back 25 years ago in the Windows 3.1 days, I had a Logitech Soundman Wave sound card in my PC. For the price it was one of the best and affordable, too. I would listen to various free download midi files for hours.

Even with the limits of the technology then, immediately I could tell when a professional wrote the midi track. It had dynamics, midi instruments played with expression not just playing the notes, attacks, decays, etc. The drums had a lot of expression, too. The solos sounded musical, the improv riffs sounded realistic, not just notes on the sheet.

Around 2015, I bought a used General Music (GEM) WK2 hard disk arranger module for several hundred US dollars. When it debuted in the late 1990's, it was quite revolutionary. Price new was around $1,700 US. I opted for the lesser GEM PK7 keyboard around 1997, which had its sound engine but simplified in other areas for $799 US.

Even though it is older technology, it still sounds decent. Upgraded it by replacing the 1.44 mb floppy with a USB floppy emulator and the 500 mb hard disk with a solid state 1 gb compact flash card and ATA hard disk adapter.

I have a version of it I recorded, was a Hillsong number done to custom Latino WK2 MIDI loops with an older Yamaha QS300 as controller, but I am reluctant to post on SoundCloud as although I own the performance, I don't own the rights to perform their song.

According to US Copyright Law, music performance in a church setting is exempt from copyrights, but as soon as it is copied and played in a public setting like on-line or recordings on media sold or given to others, then law applies. Then I've resorted to using US public domain hymns and songs.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I'm late to this but when lost, I follow the bass until the lead, trumpet usually, makes a decision. A long tonic, with a bend and/or or growl can let you listen for clues where to slot back in.

For a small ensemble gig, part of the enjoyment for audience and band is getting out of trouble. Some of the best applause comes after finding an exit from a cul de sac, or picking up a meandering excursion.

As an audience member my enjoyment isn't diminished by hicoughs.

It ain't done till you give up on it.