Tech/maintenance Tuning low D on Tenor

[pablop]

I have two tenor saxes which I alternate on my daily practice. It is interesting to find the idiosyncrasies of each one of them.
My main is a 68 Selmer Mark VI my alternate is a Yanagisawa T991.
I play them both with the same mouthpiece/reed combo. I found that on the Yanagisawa my low D blows flat, I have been checking on this for the past couple of weeks and that has been consistent.
It somewhat improves after warming up the horn, but it requires adjustments I do not have to do while playing the Mark VI.

I am of the mind of shaving the felt on the low C key so that it opens wider, I did a quick test and found that with a wider opening on the C my D improves tuning.
Does anyone else use this technique to "tune" the horn?

 

[dexdex]

Similar experience here when comparing my sopranos. The low D is critical on a Yam 875, on the flat side, and no problem on a Yam 475 and a Yani SC 880. Curious to read other experiences and reactions.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It will alter the low D, but what does it do to middle D ?
It’s a common problem note on sax, and aside from intonation it can be very stuffy too.

Another fix is to play low D with the C# key open. It’s a pretty good fix for tenor but can be wildly sharp on alto.

I don’t understand how the intonation of low D improves when the horn is warmer - surely pitch moves up on the whole range.

Alternating horns daily is somewhat unorthodox.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Similar experience here when comparing my sopranos. The low D is critical on a Yam 875, on the flat side, and no problem on a Yam 475 and a Yani SC 880. Curious to read other experiences and reactions.

My Selmer S2 low D isn’t a great note.

 

[pablop]

@Pete Effamy I'll give the C# trick a try, I alternate the horns regularly, not daily, like to keep them both on ready to play condition and that involves me ready to use either of them.

I had not though of the middle D impact, thanks for pointing that out.
As far as the intonation improvement after warming up that is an observation, I practice with the tuner on so I can check myself and that happens, I do not consciously change embochure and it does not happen on the mark VI

 

[Pete Effamy]

@Pete Effamy I'll give the C# trick a try, I alternate the horns regularly, not daily, like to keep them both on ready to play condition and that involves me ready to use either of them.

I had not though of the middle D impact, thanks for pointing that out.
As far as the intonation improvement after warming up that is an observation, I practice with the tuner on so I can check myself and that happens, I do not consciously change embochure and it does not happen on the mark VI

But don’t all the other notes get sharper too ?

 

[pablop]

@Pete Effamy yes as in any other horn, but on the low D the correction is bigger bringing it closer to pitch with the rest.
I make no logic out of it, it is possible that I am doing subconscious corrections but nothing I can identify or intentional...

This does not happen when playing the Selmer,....low D is quite in tune from the get-go.

 

[Pete Effamy]

@Pete Effamy yes as in any other horn, but on the low D the correction is bigger bringing it closer to pitch with the rest.
I make no logic out of it, it is possible that I am doing subconscious corrections but nothing I can identify or intentional...

This does not happen when playing the Selmer,....low D is quite in tune from the get-go.

It’s quite likely that the addition of the low C# key will make D sharp, but that is far easier to work around than flat, especially that low down - there’s very little you can affect a flat note that low by embouchure / tongue position; biting will just make the note choke somewhat rather than making it sharper.

 

[Pete Effamy]

yes as in any other horn, but on the low D the correction is bigger bringing it closer to pitch with the rest.

Is this possible ? Surely everything is set - the size of tone hole, the key openings around it and the distance from the mouthpiece.

Physics ? (I hated Physics at school and dropped it , along with biology and chemistry. This allows me to point out that I am not in any shape or form a man of science - disclaimer over).

 

[skeller047]

It’s a common issue, due to the bow and the D is not perfectly vented. Raising the C key is the usual fix, both for stuffiness and flatness.

 

[pablop]

hi @skeller047 so your input is that allowing C to open wider can help with the initial pitch on D, right?
I can shave part of the felt that stops C and consequently have it open more.

 

[pablop]

Is this possible ? Surely everything is set - the size of tone hole, the key openings around it and the distance from the mouthpiece.

Physics ? (I hated Physics at school and dropped it , along with biology and chemistry. This allows me to point out that I am not in any shape or form a man of science - disclaimer over).

I know it makes no logical sense, but theory and real life experience do not always align; we would not be making a distinction in between the two if they did...

 

[Pete Effamy]

hi @skeller047 so your input is that allowing C to open wider can help with the initial pitch on D, right?
I can shave part of the felt that stops C and consequently have it open more.

Do you have an adjustable bump screw (that the felt is attached to) ?

Turn that before taking felt off

 

[JayeNM]

hi @skeller047 so your input is that allowing C to open wider can help with the initial pitch on D, right?
I can shave part of the felt that stops C and consequently have it open more.

Just see then if your low C becomes too sharp....that is sort of the trade-off ....

 

[skeller047]

hi @skeller047 so your input is that allowing C to open wider can help with the initial pitch on D, right?
I can shave part of the felt that stops C and consequently have it open more.

Yes. I agree with @Pete Effamy about using the adjustment if there is one. If there isn’t an adjustment, then be sure you have some replacement felt so you can put it back if you don’t like the result.

Another issue, is it possible that you are using too much embouchure pressure, and the D is flat because you have to relax a bit to get it to sound? I am generally most comfortable on tenor when I have the mouthpiece pushed in, which means I have to relax my embouchure pressure on the reed. This gives the best tone in my experience, and I find it easier to be in tune. I have written elsewhere about making sure the horn is in tune with itself, which for me results in pushing in and relaxing my embouchure pressure. (Embouchure muscles are still firm, but jaw is loose so less pressure on the reed.)

 

[pablop]

Thanks @skeller047 I have been working on embouchure and still learning, overtones have made me make some very rewarding progress on that department.
I shaved that felt a bit and did not notice much of a change tbh. Focusing on controlling it with adjustments on my end for now