Low D very flat and bad response

Hey guys,

Some infos about me as a player and my equipment ahead:

I‘ve been playing since Summer 23 and practice about 1h daily,
I have a teacher I visit weekly and play in an educational Jazz Ensemble consisting of said teacher‘s Students - we also meet weekly and play under the teacher’s supervision.

I play a Jupiter 700Q Tenor Sax with a D‘Addario Jazz Select 7 MP and Gonzalez Strength 3 Reeds. (also tried several Vandoren 2.5 and 3 Reeds, as well as Select Jazz 2H and 3S which ironically worked worst of all). I feel very happy with my sound overall and my teacher reinforces that sentiment quite frequently.

Low Bb to C# respond incredibly well and I can quite easily play them even in a soft staccato.

I know that the D often is a problematic note due to the positioning on the bow and I attributed my issues with it to that and the fact,
that I have not been playing for that long.
But by now I have acquired pretty decent control over my voicing and can comfortably do 1 octave on my MP without changing my jaw and lip position.

I can get the D in tune but it breaks off into the upper octave by force at +5 cents.
If I play it staccato it‘s at -35 cents.
With the same embouchure as low C it‘s at -25cents.

Things I did:
- I have raised the C key to it‘s maximum height but only pressing C# gets the low D in tune.
- raising B and Bb does not change anything unfortunately
- the middle D sounds quite dull unless I open my throat to it‘s limits or add the D palmkey (I worked on tonematching the middle D with and without the Palmkey for many hours and still do to compensate)
- I regularly practice chromatically down from middle C# with both octave keys open to improve low note control.
- a few months ago I brought it to a tech, who quickly looked it over with a leaklight and told me it was fine, he did not try it though and that was that.
- today I put a flashlight into the bell and looked for leaks: found some rims of light coming out of some keys but it‘s not much - but there is also a leak on the connection clamp between the bow and the body (however if I close all keys and put my ear to the neckcork and then snap any of the RH keys it resonates pretty well in there)

So I basically have no Idea what the problem is. Please help 🙁

Can the MP be the issue? I never tried another one and only have this one.
 
Well, even your quick and crude inspection reveals the thing's leaking like a sieve. It's certainly possible there's a leak right at the right place to act as an octave vent for D; and then you have to push like hell and manipulate to get the D to come out which is driving it flat.

I'd say that if you can get soft low Bb, B, C to respond it's unlikely to be a mouthpiece problem.

Have you had an experienced saxophonist give this thing a blow?
 
today I put a flashlight into the bell and looked for leaks: found some rims of light coming out of some keys but it‘s not much - but there is also a leak on the connection clamp between the bow and the body
"Not much"? If a torch can show up leaks it's much, I'd'v thought
to a tech, who quickly looked it over with a leaklight and told me it was fine,

So which?

Also, I've noticed that leaks above a problem key can cause problems without showing up as a problem higher up.

Get a leak light - a string of LEDs - off Amazon and check properly and get it to a tec.
 
IMO, with the different saxes that I have messed with, I think this slightly flat Low D is more common than not.

My early 1950's Beaugnier Vito Bari has an interesting mechanism I have not seen in other saxes. It cracks open the Low C# pad when Low D is fingered. On others like my earlier Antigua Winds pro Alto, I must manually press the Low C# left pinky key, which then brings Low D into tune. This is true also with my Venus Bb Tenor Sax, Venus Bb Soprano Sax, my Vito (Jupiter stencil) Bb Tenor Sax, and my Selmer Bundy II Alto Sax.

In fast running passages, I usually do not bother. But simply pressing the Low C# when fingering Low D raises it sufficiently to be in tune.

Now if I am tuned a touch sharp where I must relax my embouchure a little to play in tune, then for shorter durations will simply lip up. But for especially held notes, it is just much easier to raise it by manually fingering Low C# with Low D.

Note, for D one octave up, it has less effect and usually that D can be easily lipped to tune or it is already in tune.
 
Crude test… put a rubber glove over the bell. Neck on and clamped.
Finger all keys closed. Suck on end of neck until the glove is inside the bell. It should hold vacuum for ten or fifteen seconds. If not, well you have leaks somewhere.
 
Crude test… put a rubber glove over the bell. Neck on and clamped. Finger all keys closed. Suck on end of neck until the glove is inside the bell. It should hold vacuum for ten or fifteen seconds. If not, well you have leaks somewhere.
Interesting, quick test without special tools or knowledge. :thumb:No, ghostler, you suck on the other end of the saxophone! :rofl:

And my bad, re-read the OP's comment and missed it by a nautical mile. :confused:
 
I’ve never heard of that before.

But it sounds like the tech you took it to before may not be that great if they didn’t play it. If find another one.
I‘ve read that a couple of times when looking for answers. I might just visit again and ask them for a more thorough check. The shop is supposed to have pretty good techs 😅

"Not much"? If a torch can show up leaks it's much, I'd'v thought


So which?

Also, I've noticed that leaks above a problem key can cause problems without showing up as a problem higher up.

Get a leak light - a string of LEDs - off Amazon and check properly and get it to a tec.
My visit at the tech was months ago and my check just yesterday, but yes, the leaks I found were at the clamp, and the backside of the D and E key. I‘ll get one of these lights for sure.
Well, even your quick and crude inspection reveals the thing's leaking like a sieve. It's certainly possible there's a leak right at the right place to act as an octave vent for D; and then you have to push like hell and manipulate to get the D to come out which is driving it flat.

I'd say that if you can get soft low Bb, B, C to respond it's unlikely to be a mouthpiece problem.

Have you had an experienced saxophonist give this thing a blow?
This is what it feels like to a certain degree, the sound of the low D also has a hint of the same quality to it as all the notes have in my practice with both octave keys open. Just a little though.
My teacher refuses to play other horns than his own because he is worried to spread his herpes and I frankly don‘t know any other really good ones 🙁
IMO, with the different saxes that I have messed with, I think this slightly flat Low D is more common than not.

My early 1950's Beaugnier Vito Bari has an interesting mechanism I have not seen in other saxes. It cracks open the Low C# pad when Low D is fingered. On others like my earlier Antigua Winds pro Alto, I must manually press the Low C# left pinky key, which then brings Low D into tune. This is true also with my Venus Bb Tenor Sax, Venus Bb Soprano Sax, my Vito (Jupiter stencil) Bb Tenor Sax, and my Selmer Bundy II Alto Sax.

In fast running passages, I usually do not bother. But simply pressing the Low C# when fingering Low D raises it sufficiently to be in tune.

Now if I am tuned a touch sharp where I must relax my embouchure a little to play in tune, then for shorter durations will simply lip up. But for especially held notes, it is just much easier to raise it by manually fingering Low C# with Low D.

Note, for D one octave up, it has less effect and usually that D can be easily lipped to tune or it is already in tune.
Thanks, this is what I stumbled upon in my research too. One of the tunes I‘m playing right now consists of a ton of low and middle D and that‘s where it became a real issue for me. Maybe I‘ll practice it with the C#-D and see how I deal with that, seems like an annoying thing to have to do though ^_^
Crude test… put a rubber glove over the bell. Neck on and clamped.
Finger all keys closed. Suck on end of neck until the glove is inside the bell. It should hold vacuum for ten or fifteen seconds. If not, well you have leaks somewhere.
That’s pretty smart, I tried that and it held up pretty well, I could slowly see the pressure normalize over about 10 seconds. So it is not airtight but there is also not a huge hole anywhere 😅
I‘ll see if it changes anything if I moisten the D and E Pads to have them seal a bit better and put something on the clamp to seal it up in the area around the D.

Thanks for all the answers @everyone
I‘ll let you know if I find a solution
 
Thanks, this is what I stumbled upon in my research too. One of the tunes I‘m playing right now consists of a ton of low and middle D and that‘s where it became a real issue for me. Maybe I‘ll practice it with the C#-D and see how I deal with that, seems like an annoying thing to have to do though ^_^
You're welcome. Anything new or different is counter-intuitive to our "trained" way of thinking. But with persistent practise, it will slowly become natural.

This goes true for even bad habits. They can be overcome with persistent emphasis in practise.
 
I'm still feeling you are underestimating how small a leak can be to be significant.
Subtle leaks can make it harder to play the lower notes softly, it sneaks up on you. This became readily evident when my brand new tenor sax slid all by itself off of the community band's folding sheet metal chairs; (why I now bring a sax stand.) I was surprised when I returned seeing it sitting on the floor, with a good size dent in the lower body and bent keys.

I have straightened them, but there still is a pad or two with a very slight, ever so slight leak. The leak light (Christmas tree LED rope) hasn't revealed it yet, but I know it is there.

For now, the sax is best for rock and roll and the widest tip mouthpiece I have.
 
Subtle leaks can make it harder to play the lower notes softly
I really have no idea then because I can quite easily play the lowest notes at a whisper even starting with a breath attack 😭

Moistening the pads and putting kneaded glue on the clamp to seal it did not really do much unfortunately.
 
I've learned by experience that there may be "rules of thumb", but no hard and fast rules when it comes to mouthpieces as everyone's mouth is different.

Just using this as an example, some students who have experienced various problems with their "beginner model sax" became a decent player with the simple change of a mouthpiece.

Perhaps go to a slightly wider tip mouthpiece and softer reed?
 
I‘ll see if it changes anything if I moisten the D and E Pads to have them seal a bit better
Nope, bad idea to wet pads. Just blow some warm moist air into it for a minute. Keys all closed.
Appears seal is not 100%. Small leaks can also be in the pads themselves. A porous pad, a pad lacking shellac and leaking through the rivet/booster mount hole.
You’re not dealing with a massive gap type leak.
You could try putting saran wrap around keys one at a time. It may show its face as a leaking pad itself.
 
I've learned by experience that there may be "rules of thumb", but no hard and fast rules when it comes to mouthpieces as everyone's mouth is different.

Just using this as an example, some students who have experienced various problems with their "beginner model sax" became a decent player with the simple change of a mouthpiece.

Perhaps go to a slightly wider tip mouthpiece and softer reed?
Changing MP is not really an option for me but I‘ll try to visit a tech within the next weeks and maybe I can try out some and see if it solves anything. Then it might become an option 😅
Nope, bad idea to wet pads. Just blow some warm moist air into it for a minute. Keys all closed.
Appears seal is not 100%. Small leaks can also be in the pads themselves. A porous pad, a pad lacking shellac and leaking through the rivet/booster mount hole.
You’re not dealing with a massive gap type leak.
You could try putting saran wrap around keys one at a time. It may show its face as a leaking pad itself.
Do you mean around the pad to add material for a better seal or around the closed pad and the surrounding sax to seal off the whole thing? -> because the first did not really change much and the latter.. well, seems impossible to get that done 😅
I assume putting cork grease or so on the pads where I saw a rim of light to ensure a temporarily good seal and see if that was indeed the problem is a nogo, right?

Fixing a leak on a pad with a short arm like D and E can not be done by careful bending like on fe. the C key, right?
 
Changing MP is not really an option for me but I‘ll try to visit a tech within the next weeks and maybe I can try out some and see if it solves anything. Then it might become an option 😅
By the way, what mouthpiece are you using?
Do you mean around the pad to add material for a better seal or around the closed pad and the surrounding sax to seal off the whole thing? -> because the first did not really change much and the latter.. well, seems impossible to get that done 😅
I assume putting cork grease or so on the pads where I saw a rim of light to ensure a temporarily good seal and see if that was indeed the problem is a nogo, right?

Fixing a leak on a pad with a short arm like D and E can not be done by careful bending like on fe. the C key, right?
I think what @PigSquealer (a very experienced and gifted repairer near retirement, has even manufactured parts to repair vintage instruments) means, is that it is possible that the pad has developed a porosity or crack that readily cannot be seen without disassembly.

By temporarily placing a sheet of "Saran Wrap" flexible plastic under the pad and closing the pad whilst playing may reveal which pad it is that leaks.
 
First thing is to get the horn reasonably leak free. You need to put a light down it, identify each leak and why it's leaking. Sometimes it's that a pad that used to seal has become distorted or deteriorated. Sometimes it's that a key has gotten slightly bent. Sometimes the pad would seal just fine, but the key interactions have gotten out of adjustment and it doesn't close properly (this in itself has multiple root causes - piece of cork fell off, piece of cork has crushed down, something bent, etc.) Sometimes it's a looseness in the mechanism that can be easily fixed by tightening a screw that's worked loose. Sometimes it's a looseness in the mechanism that needs tightening up due to wear - again, several different ways to reverse the effects of long term wear. Sometimes a tone hole has gotten distorted, maybe by a nearby dent, maybe a dent on the tone hole chimney itself. Sometimes a pad was badly installed and has shifted and distorted till it no longer seals. You also mentioned apparent leaks at joints in the tube itself.

Until the horn is reasonably leak free, and your initial crude inspection showed that yours leaks like a sieve, everything else is just wasted effort.
 

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